Suns sign Rubio

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:06 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Some of us thought that it was stupid to sign Ariza, and that Anderson sucked, from day one.
They could have used that money on a PG or PF, both of those would have been smarter moves, I would think. There were a lot of things that they did that were questionable at best that we disagreed with last off-season, starting with who to take and how to deal with the draft.
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm

In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
We also thought that Anderson, even though plenty of evidence in Houston said not to, would be a decent stretch 4 next to Ayton and had something left in the tank. We also assumed that they wouldn't go into the season with the PG rotation of Canaan, Melton, and Okobo and of course they would trade for a starting PG. No?
Oh, you mean to say that some of us (many of us, me included) expected the mish-mash of players to come together as a team and play good enough basketball to at least win 25 freaking games? Yeah, I know. But fans like us thinking shit smells like roses is par for the course.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:45 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Some of us thought that it was stupid to sign Ariza, and that Anderson sucked, from day one.
But even those people were saying they will do enough to win more games than the previous year. We are always overly optimistic because that was fans do.

One of my favorite lines of all time, from anywhere:
"When you look at someone with rose-colored glasses, the red flags just look like flags."

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Split T
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Split T » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:09 pm

I think the big difference from last year to this year is we aren’t counting on any unproven players anymore. Admittedly, I was one of those posters last year that thought the Ariza signing was good. I didn’t love it, but felt it was harmless and thought his veteran presence would be helpful. Still, we were counting on Jackson, Bender, and rookie pg’s to play significant rotation minutes. We don’t have that this year.

We could very well still crash and burn this year, no one really knows, but for me at least, it’s hard to look at this team and not see how it’s much better put together than last years team.
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O_Gardino
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by O_Gardino » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:34 pm

In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:25 pm
O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:40 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Drewsprocket wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:53 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:49 pm
If they won 30 games last year, they still would have trailed the 14th team by 3 games. Winning only 30 games will be a complete disaster, imo. A lot a things would have to go very wrong if that happened.
They need to scaffold up each year. 30+, 40+, etc. learning to win and growing together. There isn’t gomna be some overnight change or superstar coming in for the rescue. Blazers are coming together finally. Here’s hoping that’s our new trajectory.
I would agree with this if the 19 wins wasn't an aberration last year due to a totally unacceptable roster construction last year. How do you possibly build a roster without a PF or real PG on the roster?

I believe that they would have had 30 wins last year if only they had the roster at the end of the year the whole season. That's not including the added depth, the subtraction of negative value players, upgrades at several positions, natural growth from players and real actual PFs that can contribute.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but last year wasn't an aberration. It was a result of who the Suns are. Over the last 8 years, the Suns have averaged 29 wins. The aberration was that one 48 win season.

Our summer this year might look better than last summer right now. But last summer many of us thought Ayton and Igor would bring us to 35 wins, too. Objectively, the Suns made the same kind of moves they have been making for yeas now. Another PG who is supposed to be a difference maker here (even though he hasn't been a difference maker elsewhere), one player at a position of need who addresses half our weaknesses there, A free agent tying up cap space at the same position we use a lottery pick on, a new coach who hasn't been a successful nba head coach yet.

30 wins wouldn't be complete disaster - it would be the average result from an average Suns offseason. I certainly hope that this time the coach turns out to be good and the players click and outperform their history. But I don't think it's realistic to ride or die with this roster like we will finally break out of the pattern and win close to half our games.
I guess I must apologize for not making myself clear. They totally deserved those 63 losses, it was totally on them. They were a horrible team and played like it. What I meant was that the talent level on the team was much better last year than it had been in the 3-4 yrs prior. If they would have had a decent sane competently built balanced roster, they wouldn't have been at 19 wins. I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over and no one is hearing me say this. If they would have had Tyler Johnson, who is a backup combo guard, and Kelly Oubre, who was a young middling athletic small forward, on the team the entire year, even the experts agree that they most likely would have won another 10 games over the course of the season.

I'm not saying that they are going from 19 wins to title contender this year. I'm saying that just filling the holes in the roster and adding talent and depth, that they will be drastically improved. We might see Devin improve his efficiency and defense if he's not having to carry the load of creation and table setting. We might see Deandre blossom if he had a decent PF next to him or a PG that could pass him the ball. We might see Bridges play even better in a winning environment.
I hear you, and I think we agree on the main point. We are better this year than last year. And last year could have been even better under other circumstances.

I just think you are setting yourself up for heartbreak with the stuff about 30 wins would be a complete disaster. An 11 win improvement after this offseason would be just fine.
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Drewsprocket » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:53 pm

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
It was insane last year that we had no point guard. I was pulling out my hair over their lack of point guard play. Two second picks and a 3rd string pg. oh and then Jamal Crawford. It’s fair to be skeptical of the front orafice’s pick ups. But this summer they made reasonable moves woth Rubio and Oubre without mortgaging the future.

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. (Note: Requires full 82 game season.)

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Hermen
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Hermen » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am

Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 am

Hermen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.
ding. ding. ding.

Does everyone forget how much we were clapping ourselves on the back for adding a "generational center" to our team with our first ever #1 pick in the draft? He still has time, but last year he was completely ineffectual and our opponents shot 7% BETTER at the rim when he was on the court.

I am just saying that our foresight and our hindsight seem to be as far apart as any team in the league. And we should learn from that.

Look how crazy we went when we got those 48 wins under Jeff. We thought the rebuild was over and we were on our way back to the playoffs the next year for sure. That was 6 years ago. Our 5 seasons since then have given us an average of 25 wins. I think it is fair to assume we will be better than that average, but assuming we will blow it away the next few years is pure optimism, and not based in evidence.

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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:34 am

I think the benchmark is the Dragic Bledsoe Frye year ... for whatever we’ve added on paper, and in my view it’s quite a lot, we’ve added even more in chemistry. No McD stinking up the joint with his inadequacies and rosters, Rubio passing the ball capably, likewise Saric .. We’re surprising people this season I just about guarantee it.

As I said after the Dallas opener last year of course, but this does seem different.


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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:37 am

To clarify - I don’t mean benchmark 48 wins, I mean benchmark chemistry. 40 wins is doable, a stretch but doable, and would constitute surprising people.


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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:44 am

But really, our current team is more talented than the 13-14 team so maybe 48 wins isn’t a stretch?

Maybe the quality of the teams around us counts against us, and maybe I continue to be a blind fanatic..


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SDC
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by SDC » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:24 am

The suns will have a better record than Dallas next season


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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:50 am

Indy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 am
Hermen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.
ding. ding. ding.

Does everyone forget how much we were clapping ourselves on the back for adding a "generational center" to our team with our first ever #1 pick in the draft? He still has time, but last year he was completely ineffectual and our opponents shot 7% BETTER at the rim when he was on the court.

I am just saying that our foresight and our hindsight seem to be as far apart as any team in the league. And we should learn from that.

Look how crazy we went when we got those 48 wins under Jeff. We thought the rebuild was over and we were on our way back to the playoffs the next year for sure. That was 6 years ago. Our 5 seasons since then have given us an average of 25 wins. I think it is fair to assume we will be better than that average, but assuming we will blow it away the next few years is pure optimism, and not based in evidence.
So the evidence is that they haven't been good for the last 5 years, never mind the players and roster that was built then and now. Well, I'm convinced! 25 wins this year, baby! That's improvement from 19!
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by O_Gardino » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:03 am

No, In2. We're looking at the players, roster, moves over the summer etc. It doesn't look that different from what we've been doing. A little better, but not a lot.
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Split T
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Split T » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:42 am

O_Gardino wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:03 am
No, In2. We're looking at the players, roster, moves over the summer etc. It doesn't look that different from what we've been doing. A little better, but not a lot.
How does it not look different? When was the last time we weren’t counting on any minutes from g league level players?

Yes, some people applauded the Ariza signing(including me), but that was 1 player. We were still banking on josh Jackson, dragan Bender, Isaiah Canaan, and a couple rookie pg’s for real rotation minutes. I don’t remember anyone thinking Ryan Anderson was actually going to be a big help...some were hopeful, but most everyone on here New he was washed.

Since James Jones took over, we’ve added Kelly Oubre, Tyler Johnson, Dario Saric, Aron Baynes, Cam Johnson, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Ricky Rubio, Frank Kaminsky, and Cheik Diallo. That somehow equates to adding Trevor Ariza and Ryan Anderson?

C’mon...this team clearly was built drastically different than any McD team. I’m not saying that means we will succeed, but if this team doesn’t work, it’s not because we didn’t have nba players. We’ve got a legit 8 man rotation of real life nba players. When could we last say that? And that doesn’t include Cam Johnson or Ty Jerome, both of whom I think have nba ready skills.
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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:47 am

Indy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 am
Hermen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.
ding. ding. ding.

Does everyone forget how much we were clapping ourselves on the back for adding a "generational center" to our team with our first ever #1 pick in the draft? He still has time, but last year he was completely ineffectual and our opponents shot 7% BETTER at the rim when he was on the court.

I am just saying that our foresight and our hindsight seem to be as far apart as any team in the league. And we should learn from that.

Look how crazy we went when we got those 48 wins under Jeff. We thought the rebuild was over and we were on our way back to the playoffs the next year for sure. That was 6 years ago. Our 5 seasons since then have given us an average of 25 wins. I think it is fair to assume we will be better than that average, but assuming we will blow it away the next few years is pure optimism, and not based in evidence.
You don't need hindsight to see that this is a much, much better balanced roster.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. (Note: Requires full 82 game season.)

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:55 am

Split T wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:42 am
O_Gardino wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:03 am
No, In2. We're looking at the players, roster, moves over the summer etc. It doesn't look that different from what we've been doing. A little better, but not a lot.
How does it not look different? When was the last time we weren’t counting on any minutes from g league level players?

Yes, some people applauded the Ariza signing(including me), but that was 1 player. We were still banking on josh Jackson, dragan Bender, Isaiah Canaan, and a couple rookie pg’s for real rotation minutes. I don’t remember anyone thinking Ryan Anderson was actually going to be a big help...some were hopeful, but most everyone on here New he was washed.

Since James Jones took over, we’ve added Kelly Oubre, Tyler Johnson, Dario Saric, Aron Baynes, Cam Johnson, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Ricky Rubio, Frank Kaminsky, and Cheik Diallo. That somehow equates to adding Trevor Ariza and Ryan Anderson?

C’mon...this team clearly was built drastically different than any McD team. I’m not saying that means we will succeed, but if this team doesn’t work, it’s not because we didn’t have nba players. We’ve got a legit 8 man rotation of real life nba players. When could we last say that? And that doesn’t include Cam Johnson or Ty Jerome, both of whom I think have nba ready skills.
Nobody is equating that. Some of us are saying that counting our chicks before they hatch has shown, over the last many years, to be a poor way to figure out how many real chicks we will have.

This summer does look different. But we are again starting with a brand new coaching staff, I still haven't heard about any scout hirings, we let Aaron Nelson go and outsourced his team's job, and decided to go with a draft approach of "I don't think this guy's floor will be too low, so I don't care how high his ceiling is and happy to blow the $$ I saved by trading down to take him" instead of taking some guys that had a good opportunity to fit well next to Ayton in the front court. It very well may work out. But it isn't a likely outcome. If it were, our over/under by people that literally only make money if they are close on that would be high-30s, instead of high 20s.

I am still optimistic that we will beat the over/under, but not enough to say we are going to be high 30s or pushing .500 ball. Or even like some are saying, we will be pushing for the playoffs.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:58 am

Superbone wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:47 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 am
Hermen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I appreciate the optimism, but people said the same thing last off-season. There were plenty of people here saying bring in Trevor was a really good signing and it would give us a big jump forward, coupled with a dominant 7-1 center and book a year older and...
I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.
ding. ding. ding.

Does everyone forget how much we were clapping ourselves on the back for adding a "generational center" to our team with our first ever #1 pick in the draft? He still has time, but last year he was completely ineffectual and our opponents shot 7% BETTER at the rim when he was on the court.

I am just saying that our foresight and our hindsight seem to be as far apart as any team in the league. And we should learn from that.

Look how crazy we went when we got those 48 wins under Jeff. We thought the rebuild was over and we were on our way back to the playoffs the next year for sure. That was 6 years ago. Our 5 seasons since then have given us an average of 25 wins. I think it is fair to assume we will be better than that average, but assuming we will blow it away the next few years is pure optimism, and not based in evidence.
You don't need hindsight to see that this is a much, much better balanced roster.
OK, but people were saying that last summer, too. Ooh, look we added a generational center to replace that bum Alex Len and Tyson Chandler. Ooh, we added a really tenacious defender and great 3pt shooter in the front court. Ooh, JJ will come into his own this year. Oh, Bender will have the room to play minutes that will help the team this year. And don't worry, we will trade for a real PG any minute now.

That is how we were talking.

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:15 am

Indy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:58 am
Superbone wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:47 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 am
Hermen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:56 pm


I really don't understand how you can compare last year's offseason to this one. It was obvious in hindsight that we began and played most of the season with an unbalanced roster. This year is the opposite. I would be extremely surprised if we're having this same conversation a year from now.
Who knows what this year's hindsight will bring.
ding. ding. ding.

Does everyone forget how much we were clapping ourselves on the back for adding a "generational center" to our team with our first ever #1 pick in the draft? He still has time, but last year he was completely ineffectual and our opponents shot 7% BETTER at the rim when he was on the court.

I am just saying that our foresight and our hindsight seem to be as far apart as any team in the league. And we should learn from that.

Look how crazy we went when we got those 48 wins under Jeff. We thought the rebuild was over and we were on our way back to the playoffs the next year for sure. That was 6 years ago. Our 5 seasons since then have given us an average of 25 wins. I think it is fair to assume we will be better than that average, but assuming we will blow it away the next few years is pure optimism, and not based in evidence.
You don't need hindsight to see that this is a much, much better balanced roster.
OK, but people were saying that last summer, too. Ooh, look we added a generational center to replace that bum Alex Len and Tyson Chandler. Ooh, we added a really tenacious defender and great 3pt shooter in the front court. Ooh, JJ will come into his own this year. Oh, Bender will have the room to play minutes that will help the team this year. And don't worry, we will trade for a real PG any minute now.

That is how we were talking.
Which didn't happen. We don't have to worry about that this year as the roster is already filled out without any glaring holes.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. (Note: Requires full 82 game season.)

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