Suns sign Rubio

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Wormwood
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Wormwood » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:24 pm

Superbone wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:22 am
Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
Sure, if you want to base your whole bet on Ricky Rubio led teams. Missing a whole lot of other factors, aren't you?
Sure, there's lot of factors, But, looking at various rosters, the T-wolves rosters surrounding Rubio weren't much better or worse than the one we have surrounded Rubio with. In the end, I can't get over the fact that 2/3rds of our starting lineup are horrifically bad defenders (Booker, Saric, and Ayton). When you factor in the fact that your PF and C are the most crucial positions on defense, I think our roster is a lot more like Minnesota's than Utah's.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:18 pm

Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
Worm, go bet the house on the under. I dare you.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Aztec Sunsfan » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm

Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.

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jonh
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by jonh » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm
Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.
What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
“I’m done with not making the playoffs. I’m serious. This is probably the last year I’m ever not making the playoffs.” Devin Booker-- April, 2017

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Split T
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Split T » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am

jonh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm
Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.
What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.

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Nodack
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Nodack » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm

We were a bastardized team last year. Revolving mediocre point guards forcing Booker to play PG half the time, which he isn’t. I think the time he spent playing PG gave him experience as a PG and ultimately helps his game. All players are sort of PG’s in a way since they all have to pass to each other and set each other up.

Last year we didn’t even have a single power forward unless you consider Bender. Bender barely played until the end. We don’t have Barkley, but we have a few real PF’s now and a complete team for once. I am looking forward to that. I don’t see how we don’t improve.

The logic that Rubio was that on teams that didn’t have great records proves we won’t be any good is crap. I consider Booker nearing All Star caliber and look at his teams record. Worse than Rubio’s. Therefore Booker sucks? I don’t buy that logic at all. The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:53 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
We were a bastardized team last year. Revolving mediocre point guards forcing Booker to play PG half the time, which he isn’t. I think the time he spent playing PG gave him experience as a PG and ultimately helps his game. All players are sort of PG’s in a way since they all have to pass to each other and set each other up.

Last year we didn’t even have a single power forward unless you consider Bender. Bender barely played until the end. We don’t have Barkley, but we have a few real PF’s now and a complete team for once. I am looking forward to that. I don’t see how we don’t improve.

The logic that Rubio was that on teams that didn’t have great records proves we won’t be any good is crap. I consider Booker nearing All Star caliber and look at his teams record. Worse than Rubio’s. Therefore Booker sucks? I don’t buy that logic at all. The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
Totally agree.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:08 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
They made the playoffs every single year Jordan played for them.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:11 pm

In2ition wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:53 pm
Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
We were a bastardized team last year. Revolving mediocre point guards forcing Booker to play PG half the time, which he isn’t. I think the time he spent playing PG gave him experience as a PG and ultimately helps his game. All players are sort of PG’s in a way since they all have to pass to each other and set each other up.

Last year we didn’t even have a single power forward unless you consider Bender. Bender barely played until the end. We don’t have Barkley, but we have a few real PF’s now and a complete team for once. I am looking forward to that. I don’t see how we don’t improve.

The logic that Rubio was that on teams that didn’t have great records proves we won’t be any good is crap. I consider Booker nearing All Star caliber and look at his teams record. Worse than Rubio’s. Therefore Booker sucks? I don’t buy that logic at all. The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
Totally agree.
In general I agree that we have a team of professional basketball players at every positions, as well as several on our bench. That is a huge improvement. And I agree we will be a much better team this year. But even being twice as good might not mean many more wins. Teams played a good first 5-6 minutes of the game, then another stretch in the 3rd. And that was almost always too much for us to overcome. Teams will try harder against us than they did last year, too.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:59 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:11 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:53 pm
Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
We were a bastardized team last year. Revolving mediocre point guards forcing Booker to play PG half the time, which he isn’t. I think the time he spent playing PG gave him experience as a PG and ultimately helps his game. All players are sort of PG’s in a way since they all have to pass to each other and set each other up.

Last year we didn’t even have a single power forward unless you consider Bender. Bender barely played until the end. We don’t have Barkley, but we have a few real PF’s now and a complete team for once. I am looking forward to that. I don’t see how we don’t improve.

The logic that Rubio was that on teams that didn’t have great records proves we won’t be any good is crap. I consider Booker nearing All Star caliber and look at his teams record. Worse than Rubio’s. Therefore Booker sucks? I don’t buy that logic at all. The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
Totally agree.
In general I agree that we have a team of professional basketball players at every positions, as well as several on our bench. That is a huge improvement. And I agree we will be a much better team this year. But even being twice as good might not mean many more wins. Teams played a good first 5-6 minutes of the game, then another stretch in the 3rd. And that was almost always too much for us to overcome. Teams will try harder against us than they did last year, too.
You're right, teams will try harder against the Suns. Probably won't sneak up on anyone this year, or the other team feeling like they can cruise to a win.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:01 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:08 pm
Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
They made the playoffs every single year Jordan played for them.
Yes, you are correct. They also won 38 and 30 games his first 2 seasons, which wouldn't be a playoff team nowadays. I believe there are 7 extra teams now, then at that time.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:02 pm

In2ition wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:59 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:11 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:53 pm
Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
We were a bastardized team last year. Revolving mediocre point guards forcing Booker to play PG half the time, which he isn’t. I think the time he spent playing PG gave him experience as a PG and ultimately helps his game. All players are sort of PG’s in a way since they all have to pass to each other and set each other up.

Last year we didn’t even have a single power forward unless you consider Bender. Bender barely played until the end. We don’t have Barkley, but we have a few real PF’s now and a complete team for once. I am looking forward to that. I don’t see how we don’t improve.

The logic that Rubio was that on teams that didn’t have great records proves we won’t be any good is crap. I consider Booker nearing All Star caliber and look at his teams record. Worse than Rubio’s. Therefore Booker sucks? I don’t buy that logic at all. The Bulls sucked with Jordan until they got real players around him.
Totally agree.
In general I agree that we have a team of professional basketball players at every positions, as well as several on our bench. That is a huge improvement. And I agree we will be a much better team this year. But even being twice as good might not mean many more wins. Teams played a good first 5-6 minutes of the game, then another stretch in the 3rd. And that was almost always too much for us to overcome. Teams will try harder against us than they did last year, too.
You're right, teams will try harder against the Suns. Probably won't sneak up on anyone this year, or the other team feeling like they can cruise to a win.
That's a good thing. Last year we had some absolutely embarrassing starts in the first half of the year where teams were just running circles around us.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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Cap
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Cap » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:25 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm
I don’t see how we don’t improve.
Neither does anybody. When pundits say we’ll be a terrible joke of a team, they’re not saying we won’t be better than last year’s team. They’re saying we can be quite a bit better than last year and still be one of the worst in the West.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

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Nodack
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Nodack » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:21 pm

Only time will tell..

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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:00 am

Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am
jonh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm
Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.
What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.
What is a Nash like effect?

Off the top of my head:

- pass first point guard which generates greater team involvement which leads to;
- better chemistry via the promotion of team over hero ball e.g. everyone looks for the extra pass, both of which have a side effect of;
- inflating the statistics of the players around said pass first point guard.

Looking at Wiggins and KAT stats, Rubio looks like he could have a Nash like effect here in Phoenix.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am

My main concern about the current likely starting lineup (Rubio, Booker, Oubre, Saric, Ayton) is defense. We arguably have 4 out of those 5 guys who are bad defenders; only Rubio is above-average on D for his position. I love that starting lineup offensively, but will we give back just as many points and more on the defensive end?

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ShelC
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by ShelC » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 am

Oubre and Ayton should be a lot better, in general. Oubre's got the physical attributes so maybe coaching and better talent will help him. And having a year under his belt should help Ayton out, along with a better coaching staff that can hopefully get him to focus for 30mpg. I didn't think Ayton was awful defensively, my biggest gripe was him not finshing plays and watching while others fought for rebounds.

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Split T
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Split T » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm

3rdside wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:00 am
Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am
jonh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm
Wormwood wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:47 am
Rick Rubio's teams have averaged ~33 wins per season. If you only include his time in Minnesota, he averaged 28.8 wins per season. The wolves were significantly better in the two seasons after he left. Betting on the under for 30 games is a tight bet, but reasonable given the evidence.


2011–12 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 26 40 0.394
2012–13 NBA Western 12th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2013–14 NBA Western 10th Northwest 3rd 40 42 0.488
2014–15 NBA Western 15th Northwest 5th 16 66 0.195
2015–16 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 29 53 0.354
2016–17 NBA Western 13th Northwest 5th 31 51 0.378
2017–18 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 48 34 0.585
2018–19 NBA Western 5th Northwest 3rd 50 32 0.61
So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.
What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.
What is a Nash like effect?

Off the top of my head:

- pass first point guard which generates greater team involvement which leads to;
- better chemistry via the promotion of team over hero ball e.g. everyone looks for the extra pass, both of which have a side effect of;
- inflating the statistics of the players around said pass first point guard.

Looking at Wiggins and KAT stats, Rubio looks like he could have a Nash like effect here in Phoenix.
The Nash like effect I’m talking about is the suns going from 27 wins to 62 wins after signing Nash. We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it. Nash controlled everything on that team. We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt. Rubio will not be the vital to the team. He’s going to help, he’ll get players better looks, but we won’t be close to a 35 win turnaround.

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Cap
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Cap » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:38 pm

Split T wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm
We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt.
We lost the first of those 6, and dug a huge hole in the second, before Nash got hurt.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

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Split T
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Split T » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:56 pm

Cap wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:38 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm
We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt.
We lost the first of those 6, and dug a huge hole in the second, before Nash got hurt.
Fair enough, we still lost the 4 games he missed

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