Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Brings up a question, what would our summer have looked like last year if Jones was in charge? Doesn’t Doncic feel more like a Jones guy than Ayton?

We'll never know. Not as long as Jones is working for the Suns anyway.

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Doesn’t Doncic feel more like a Jones guy than Ayton?

Nope. Jones strikes me as someone who would buy into Charles Barkley school of thought about Doncic: if he is able to have so much success overseas at such a young age, it must mean that the competition sucks and he isn't very good.

It is still baffling to look back at all the horrible Doncic takes and how many actually endorsed them.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:55 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Doesn’t Doncic feel more like a Jones guy than Ayton?

Nope. Jones strikes me as someone who would buy into Charles Barkley school of thought about Doncic: if he is able to have so much success overseas at such a young age, it must mean that the competition sucks and he isn't very good.

It is still baffling to look back at all the horrible Doncic takes and how many actually endorsed them.

Hmm, why do you say that? Don’t know a lot about Jones type, but so far it seems like highly skilled, winning pedigree players. Doncic checks those boxes. Then again he seemed to focus only on ACC prospects, so maybe he would have discounted the Euroleage competition.

I thought it was dumb people wrote off doncic for playing overseas. He was the best player in the Euroleague at 18. He was obviously incredibly skilled. I did think it was fair to question his ceiling. He’s just ok as an athlete, he needs to work on his body, but there’s time for that. I’m curious where he goes after his rookie year, which was a pretty fantastic season.

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:26 pm

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:55 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Doesn’t Doncic feel more like a Jones guy than Ayton?

Nope. Jones strikes me as someone who would buy into Charles Barkley school of thought about Doncic: if he is able to have so much success overseas at such a young age, it must mean that the competition sucks and he isn't very good.

It is still baffling to look back at all the horrible Doncic takes and how many actually endorsed them.

Hmm, why do you say that? Don’t know a lot about Jones type, but so far it seems like highly skilled, winning pedigree players. Doncic checks those boxes. Then again he seemed to focus only on ACC prospects, so maybe he would have discounted the Euroleage competition.

I thought it was dumb people wrote off doncic for playing overseas. He was the best player in the Euroleague at 18. He was obviously incredibly skilled. I did think it was fair to question his ceiling. He’s just ok as an athlete, he needs to work on his body, but there’s time for that. I’m curious where he goes after his rookie year, which was a pretty fantastic season.

Conventional wisdom won out despite Doncic crushing Europe. I like Ayton but his floor is Greg Monroe but with the possibility of bringing back the dominant Big Man game to the league. Hopefully he is working on his game and increasing defensive awareness.

Hasn't he already surpassed Greg Monroe? I don't think that's his floor.

In2ition wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Hasn't he already surpassed Greg Monroe? I don't think that's his floor.

Thats who he is so far. Greg Monroe hung 15 and 9 pretty consistently for several years while being trash on D. Ayton has way more upside but has a lot of growing to do.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:55 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Doesn’t Doncic feel more like a Jones guy than Ayton?

Nope. Jones strikes me as someone who would buy into Charles Barkley school of thought about Doncic: if he is able to have so much success overseas at such a young age, it must mean that the competition sucks and he isn't very good.

It is still baffling to look back at all the horrible Doncic takes and how many actually endorsed them.

The league has gotten really stupid about evaluating college talent. We don't trust what we see with our own eyes. We see a guy dominate pro hoops overseas, and we think, "He can't possibly do that in the NBA." We see a guy play a decent or mediocre season in the NCAA, and we think, "What potential! Surely he'll transform into a much better player in the NBA." It's ass-backwards.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:08 am

3rdside wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:38 am

For Ryan McD I'm comfortable saying no balls, or at least none that we can judge him on (so no balls in a different context), and all luck (plenty had Booker at 13).

This makes no sense to me. McD made plenty of bad decisions. But how can someone say he had no "balls"? On what basis? He did several audacious things, such as trading away Goran Dragic, trading a valuable Lakers pick for Knight, and others. These were not necessarily good moves, but they took some guts to risk existing assets. This concept of luck vs balls is fallacious and a false dichotomy.

Two definitions of balls that I used above:

1. Drafting a player much earlier than he was broadly predicted to go.

McD never did that - he had no idea what talent looked like and, to me, it seemed he selected players based on mock draft value e.g. Len was predicted to go 1 by some, so at 5 that represented value. Bender and Chriss were mock draft top 10 PF's so by drafting both of them he (in my mind) gave himself two chances at nailing down the PF spot, even though both of them sucked. It took balls to pull the trigger on the Chriss trade but that's a different context.

2. I've looked at my second definition of balls ("balls in a different context") and can't for the life of me work out what I meant - happy to call bullshit on my bullshit.

"These were not necessarily good moves" - that's one way of putting it, I prefer "fucking idiotic", and I don't think I was making that distinction about luck vs balls? Just that one (luck) could validate the other (balls) to give a false data point about a GM's drafting ability.

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 pm

In2ition wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Hasn't he already surpassed Greg Monroe? I don't think that's his floor.

Thats who he is so far. Greg Monroe hung 15 and 9 pretty consistently for several years while being trash on D. Ayton has way more upside but has a lot of growing to do.

Without a PG for Ayton, and Greg never had a year where he shot above .600 TS%

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 pm

In2ition wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Hasn't he already surpassed Greg Monroe? I don't think that's his floor.

Thats who he is so far. Greg Monroe hung 15 and 9 pretty consistently for several years while being trash on D. Ayton has way more upside but has a lot of growing to do.

That seems harsh, I can't really come up with anything to refute it. Clearly Ayton is 10X more athletic, but I can't really say Ayton has found a way yet to leverage that athleticism in a meaningful way.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:42 am

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 pm

In2ition wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Hasn't he already surpassed Greg Monroe? I don't think that's his floor.

Thats who he is so far. Greg Monroe hung 15 and 9 pretty consistently for several years while being trash on D. Ayton has way more upside but has a lot of growing to do.

That seems harsh, I can't really come up with anything to refute it. Clearly Ayton is 10X more athletic, but I can't really say Ayton has found a way yet to leverage that athleticism in a meaningful way.

Good thing he's only 20.

Good thing he has only been in the league for one year.

I preferred Doncic but I have my fingers crossed Ayton starts putting it together.

Yeah, he can still be great. We'll see what Monty & Co. can do with him.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:49 pm

Yeah, he can still be great. We'll see what Monty & Co. can do with him.

That’s what I’m looking forward too. We finally have a coaching staff arguably average or above average, not rookies learning on the job. I think some of our busts came from development as much as they came from evaluation. Every time I see someone talking about how Bender (per example) would have blossom in San Antonio, the disparity on development staffs strikes me hard.

Some people are pretty quick to throw dirt on a 21-year-old who totaled 19.1 points, 12.0 rebounds, 2.1 assists per 36 minutes and shot 58.5%.

Let's see how he does with a point guard who can actually throw an entry pass and doesn't forget about him after the first quarter.

First thing Ayton needs is to protect the rim. You can't let people drive close to you and get up easily for layup. Too often he tries to create contact when it is too late, and most of the times it is too timid of an attempt at that. Nobody dunks on him but seemingly players of all size do make their layups. Major fix needed if the Suns are actually going to be a serious team.

If he becomes relevant in that area, he is a terrific player even if he doesn't develop anything on offense.

He already has a soft touch around the basket, a turnaround and a midrange shot.

No Hakeem footwork but is far from just a mechanical post player, and I really like how he reacts while in movement.

Absolutely love how he is able to recognize the open man and make a quick pass out. He needs to put that ability to use too when guarded by a smaller player. Being able to make a jumper is nice, but if there is a size advantage, just exploit it; he has showed that when down low, it is either a basket or a foul.

Another impactful skill (if the team is not stupid): outstanding lateral quickness to stay in the perimeter when there is a switch.

The only think I feel he can't improve a lot on is maybe his hands; he is not great at catching difficult passes. I get the impression that the ball often surprises him and I don't know how much you can do there. Maybe play some counter strike hahah.

I think the odds are he becomes a top 3-5 center. He needs to keep up his work ethic and desire to do develop a couple elite skills. You could see how fast the game was around him and difficult it was for him to adapt. That he had 2 amazing games against the Lebron and the Greek Freak is very encouraging.

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:57 pm

I think the odds are he becomes a top 3-5 center.

The problem is the impact of that position. Ayton needs to be one of the best players in the league; being one of the best at his position may not matter much if his position has been marginalized.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:50 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:57 pm

I think the odds are he becomes a top 3-5 center.

The problem is the impact of that position. Ayton needs to be one of the best players in the league; being one of the best at his position may not matter much if his position has been marginalized.

Embiid just gave you a dirty look.