Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
User avatar
Ring_Wanted
Posts: 5011
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Ring_Wanted »

Split T wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:46 am
Ring_Wanted wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:56 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:19 am
This board is crazy when it comes to trades. You guys want maximum return while protecting Josh Jackson as an asset like he’s Clyde Drexler.
haha so true

Although I don't think we'd need to make the pick unprotected to be the best offer CLE gets for Love. Like others have said, there are concerns that impact his value and trading for 2020 Kevin Love doesn't make sense for many teams anyway.
Portland was the one team I could have seen really needing Love, but this Melo thing is going ok for them so far.
Yeah, POR looked like a good candidate until Melo (their cap situation would have been brutal with Love, though). Now, PHX seems like the next best fit, although I could see DAL, MIA or MIN willing to go after him as they all are in win now mode, have big expirings they could use and Love provides something they lack.

I particularly like the DAL option. They could use say Courtney Lee, Delon Wright (not mere filler, although apparently not useful to CLE) and draft stock. If they were to add Love, they'd have a pretty potent big 3, if not perfect (I don't love it on defense, but at least Porzingis protects the rim to cover Love). Also, with Cuban you know they'll use THJ expiring contract next season so they'd still have room to improve.

User avatar
Wormwood
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Wormwood »

JeremyG wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
What evidence do you have that Ayton is a subpar defender?
Ayton's Defensive Real Plus Minus (DRPM) was 0.90 (per ESPN), which would make him 40th out of 55 centers in this category.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Indy »

Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.

User avatar
Wormwood
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Wormwood »

Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:00 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.
What makes you sure we can get a FA better than Kevin Love with the ~$15-20M in cap space we will have next year? Because when I look at the list of 2020 FA PFs, none of them are as good as Love.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by In2ition »

Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
You may ultimately be right, but I really hate that even Suns fans keep pushing this narrative. Booker has been much much better this year. Ayton looked really good in the first game and I think may be the anchor we've been looking for all these years.

If Ayton is a good to great defender, it won't matter so much about Love. It's not like Saric or Kaminsky are great defenders themselves.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

User avatar
3rdside
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:59 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by 3rdside »

It’s really Saric, kaminsky and baynes at the 4, not just the first two ... plus $30m for 17 and 10, injuries and bad defence means I’m a no on Love.

And I’ll add that while kaminsky sucks as a starter I think I could like him as a strictly 3rd stringer.

C Ayton 32 mins, Baynes 12 mins, Kaminsky 4 mins
PF Saric 28 mins, Baynes 12 mins, Kaminsky 8 mins

Something like that, with diallo slotting in as and when.

User avatar
O_Gardino
Posts: 6620
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 12:47 pm
Location: Shreveport, LA

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by O_Gardino »

We're going to keep going small with Oubre / Bridges / Camfor at least 10 minutes each game.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

User avatar
3rdside
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:59 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by 3rdside »

With the small ballers slotting in as and when also..even more reason to hate the love move :)



User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Indy »

Wormwood wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:25 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:00 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.
What makes you sure we can get a FA better than Kevin Love with the ~$15-20M in cap space we will have next year? Because when I look at the list of 2020 FA PFs, none of them are as good as Love.
It isn't about a single off-season, and it isn't about a single position (PF). Having 90% of your cap taken by 4 guys is a bad plan, unless those 4 guys are KD, LeBron, AD and Curry.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by In2ition »

Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:20 am
Wormwood wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:25 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:00 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.
What makes you sure we can get a FA better than Kevin Love with the ~$15-20M in cap space we will have next year? Because when I look at the list of 2020 FA PFs, none of them are as good as Love.
It isn't about a single off-season, and it isn't about a single position (PF). Having 90% of your cap taken by 4 guys is a bad plan, unless those 4 guys are KD, LeBron, AD and Curry.
Since those guys aren't going to happen, what do you do? Just stand pat? It feels like they could use an upgrade at PF. I like Saric and he is good, and probably will be even better w/ Ayton and Baynes, but it feels like he could be better as the backup. I still think that Kaminsky will look a lot better when he's playing the backup PF, instead of starter minutes or center minutes.

The other obvious hole on the team right now seems to be backup PG or even SG. Jerome isn't quite there yet, nor is Okobo. Eventually, if they let it play out, they might be. Carter has only given occasional positive times, but when his shot isn't falling, he is a liability on offense. Tyler has been bad this year.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25468
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Split T »

There is two pathways to winning a title and one is much more common than the other.

1) Have a top 5 guy in the league and build a team around him(generally with another all-star or two) Examples include Kawhi and the Raptors, Curry/Durant and Warriors, Lebron and Cavs/Heat.

2) Build a very deep team with smart, well coached, players who play with great chemistry. Still need an all-star or two. Also kinda need to get lucky and have the more talented team have chemistry issues. Examples: 2014 Spurs(other spurs teams kinda qualify, but they also had Duncan in his prime, so they qualify for pathway 1 as well) 2011 Mavs, 2004 Pistons. 2008 Celtics probably had a little too much firepower to be included here, but I think they were also a little of both.


The suns seem more likely to be a title contender by following pathway 2. I love Booker, but I don’t ever envision him being a top 5 guy. Damian Lillard level feels like his peak. Pathway 1 would require Booker or Ayton taking an unexpected leap. Or adding another star(KAT)

For pathway 2 to work, we need to build very smart. Just adding Love to the roster doesn’t do that. He makes us better, but like Indy said, he fills up our cap space on just 4 players. Without an mvp candidate on the roster, we need to use the money wisely to build a deep team that plays well together. We may not have a true #1, but if we can get 5 or 6 guys that can be #2/#3/#4 guys and get them to play unselfishly together, that’s our pathway to a title.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25468
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Split T »

Wormwood wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:25 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:00 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.
What makes you sure we can get a FA better than Kevin Love with the ~$15-20M in cap space we will have next year? Because when I look at the list of 2020 FA PFs, none of them are as good as Love.
Jerami Grant is a FA, he’s 25. He hits 3’s and provides defense and athleticism at the 4. He’s also not going to cost 90 million over 3 years. I have no clue if he’d consider us, but Denver is deep and will eventually want to play Porter Jr. He may see our situation as a better spot for his career. I’d rather have him than Love.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Indy »

What split said. Also, it isn't about if we can get a better PF than Love for 15-20M. The question is can we get a better team by using those 30M differently. It also is a lot easier to move around puzzle pieces with multiple, instead of one giant one.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Indy »

Technically not this week, but... I think we can call the bet now AIG.


User avatar
ShelC
Posts: 12253
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 am

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by ShelC »

McD would still be holding out for a 1st for him.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:40 am
Wormwood wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:25 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:00 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.

The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
I get that saying he might give us 31 million of value over the next several years... but it means Rubio+Devin+Love+Ayton=93M at the end of Rubio's current contract. And that is with Ayton on his rookie deal. Love still has another year after that.

Trading for Love would be saying that you will not sign another FA without trading one of those 4 guys because they make up all but 15M of our total cap, and we still have to fill another 11 roster spots.

I can't see that team being a good playoff team (much less a title contender) unless we have 4-5 more guys that are making less than 3M each and are much better than average replacement players, Love is still playing at this level and at least 65 games a year, Rubio hasn't slipped anymore, and Ayton turns into a generational center.

That all seems like a lot of ifs to bet your next 4 years on.
What makes you sure we can get a FA better than Kevin Love with the ~$15-20M in cap space we will have next year? Because when I look at the list of 2020 FA PFs, none of them are as good as Love.
Jerami Grant is a FA, he’s 25. He hits 3’s and provides defense and athleticism at the 4. He’s also not going to cost 90 million over 3 years. I have no clue if he’d consider us, but Denver is deep and will eventually want to play Porter Jr. He may see our situation as a better spot for his career. I’d rather have him than Love.
I'd probably rather have Grant too, but doesn't Denver have his Bird rights? I thought that was one of the reasons that they made the trade, besides helping them become one of the best defensive teams in the league.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

Online
User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 7425
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Shabazz »

I don't think the opportunity cost of trading for Love is what we would forego in free agency, rather what else we could get in a trade. Our balance sheet is quite different in the Summer when Tyler expires, so we have a pretty small window to figure that out before we have to move more core pieces to get something significant back. Meaning, if we don't trade Tyler now, we have to probably trade Oubre later.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by In2ition »

I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: San Diego, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by Superbone »

In2ition wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:14 pm
I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
Yeah, we're not the Warriors, Lakers, or Knicks. That's for sure. We're on a budget.

OTOH, it could be worse and teams like SA have shown it can be done.
"Be Legendary."

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8

Post by In2ition »

Superbone wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:16 pm
In2ition wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:14 pm
I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
Yeah, we're not the Warriors, Lakers, or Knicks. That's for sure. We're on a budget.

OTOH, it could be worse and teams like SA have shown it can be done.
I just want to win. Basketball decisions should always trump financial decisions for a basketball team.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

Post Reply