Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

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Cap
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Cap »

Nodack wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:33 pm
I just love threads that turn into lets trade everybody threads....
I imagine that the fan board of any team with 15 losses in 19 games has similar activity.

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Indy »

Cap wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:01 pm
Nodack wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:33 pm
I just love threads that turn into lets trade everybody threads....
I imagine that the fan board of any team with 15 losses in 19 games has similar activity.
And over the last 10 games, only two of the 30 teams are worse than us. Minny is 0-10, and ATL is 1-9. We are 2-8. Ugh.

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Wally_West
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Wally_West »

There must be a meltdown going on in Minny, jeez.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:54 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:25 am
3rdside wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:32 am
AmareIsGod wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:52 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:33 pm
I’ve seen enough of Montys coaching in close games. Why sub Bridges and Cam out when they were reason #1 and 2 for us going on the huge run with their defense and shooting?

I’ve seen enough of Bookers poor attitude and stagnant play. He has not grown as a player in 2 years.
He’s regressed. He consistently is outplayed by the other teams guards every single night. He’s not an All Star. He’s not even a top 30 player in this league.

I’d be shopping Booker around the league. He’s peaked as a player. I’d look to acquire a package surrounding Holiday and draft picks in a trade for Booker, or to Minny in a three way deal with another team.

Don’t tell me it’s because he’s doubled. Every teams star player gets doubled every night. He’s the only one that is e easiest “star” to shut down.
I think that's a bit of an overaction, on top of the fact that he's on a max deal. He looked pretty dominant early in the season. I'm more concerned he's trying to play through an injury that he should be resting. Clearly something isn't right. And you don't just go from a dominant offensive player, arguably a top 10, top 15 scorer in the league to playing the way he's been playing lately just because you suck, you've peaked, you're a 23 year old on the decline. Something is wrong.
Booker for Jrue works straight up, 4 more yrs vs 2 yrs after this one ...would you do it though? I wouldn't.

Get a third team involved, get rid of TJ in the process, so it doesn't look like a straight Booker / Jrue swap and I'd be open to a trade.

Seems to me Monty preaches share ball where booker has 4 years of playing solo ball and that's a problem..
The scheme is not the problem.

Even when Book has tried to take over he’s taken bad shots, missed good looks, and I can’t count how many times he’s been wild on a fastbreak pushing the ball and turned it over like a big man trying to do too much.

This is not on anyone else but him. Simply put, he just needs to be better. Last year the excuse was he didn’t have a PG or shooters around him.

Rubio scores over 20 last night. Bridges and Cam both made multiple 3s. This is Bookers team. If he’s not the best player on the court the majority of nights, we go nowhere.
I haven't watched every minute of every game this year, but close. And I don't remember him losing the ball on a fast break more than 2-3 times this year. Would love to see someone with the player tracking data figure this out...
Oh coMe on man really? He gets to the paint flails his arm up like he got fouled, loses the ball and then doesn’t run back on D.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:12 am
The Booker hate is a little ridiculous. He can’t have a few bad games coming off an injury? Also, if you think guys like Harden and Lillard don’t have bad games, then you’re not paying attention.

Also, Harden/Lillard shouldn’t be how we measure Booker. I would love for him to get to their level, but he’s not there and hasn’t ever been there.

I’m not saying booker doesn’t shoulder some blame for our current struggles, but the amount of blame he’s getting on here is ridiculous. Funny thing is if 1 or 2 plays go our way, we win the POR/SA/DEN games and we’re 3-4 instead of 0-7 and people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much. It’s a long season, we’re definitely in a bad stretch, but the playoffs are still very well in reach.
This is a joke right? Then what is your expectation of him? We shouldn’t have given him a max deal then. He can’t even be as consistent as guys like Jamal Murray, Brad Beal, CJ McCollum. Never seen a franchise player who is so easy to get him out of his element.

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by AmareIsGod »

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:29 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:12 am
The Booker hate is a little ridiculous. He can’t have a few bad games coming off an injury? Also, if you think guys like Harden and Lillard don’t have bad games, then you’re not paying attention.

Also, Harden/Lillard shouldn’t be how we measure Booker. I would love for him to get to their level, but he’s not there and hasn’t ever been there.

I’m not saying booker doesn’t shoulder some blame for our current struggles, but the amount of blame he’s getting on here is ridiculous. Funny thing is if 1 or 2 plays go our way, we win the POR/SA/DEN games and we’re 3-4 instead of 0-7 and people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much. It’s a long season, we’re definitely in a bad stretch, but the playoffs are still very well in reach.
This is a joke right? Then what is your expectation of him? We shouldn’t have given him a max deal then. He can’t even be as consistent as guys like Jamal Murray, Brad Beal, CJ McCollum. Never seen a franchise player who is so easy to get him out of his element.
:roll:
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

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Drewsprocket
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Drewsprocket »

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:29 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:12 am
The Booker hate is a little ridiculous. He can’t have a few bad games coming off an injury? Also, if you think guys like Harden and Lillard don’t have bad games, then you’re not paying attention.

Also, Harden/Lillard shouldn’t be how we measure Booker. I would love for him to get to their level, but he’s not there and hasn’t ever been there.

I’m not saying booker doesn’t shoulder some blame for our current struggles, but the amount of blame he’s getting on here is ridiculous. Funny thing is if 1 or 2 plays go our way, we win the POR/SA/DEN games and we’re 3-4 instead of 0-7 and people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much. It’s a long season, we’re definitely in a bad stretch, but the playoffs are still very well in reach.
This is a joke right? Then what is your expectation of him? We shouldn’t have given him a max deal then. He can’t even be as consistent as guys like Jamal Murray, Brad Beal, CJ McCollum. Never seen a franchise player who is so easy to get him out of his element.
Swap Lillard for Book and you’d get some of the same frustrations. Lillard has at least another scorer who creates at least for himself. Murray plays with Jokic who is a top 15 player and at least 3rd best center in the league. Excuses as you say. Just be disappointed and take a deep breath. It will either work out this season or it won’t. I believe they will get healthy and turn it around. Save your catastrophizing for March.

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Split T »

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:29 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:12 am
The Booker hate is a little ridiculous. He can’t have a few bad games coming off an injury? Also, if you think guys like Harden and Lillard don’t have bad games, then you’re not paying attention.

Also, Harden/Lillard shouldn’t be how we measure Booker. I would love for him to get to their level, but he’s not there and hasn’t ever been there.

I’m not saying booker doesn’t shoulder some blame for our current struggles, but the amount of blame he’s getting on here is ridiculous. Funny thing is if 1 or 2 plays go our way, we win the POR/SA/DEN games and we’re 3-4 instead of 0-7 and people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much. It’s a long season, we’re definitely in a bad stretch, but the playoffs are still very well in reach.
This is a joke right? Then what is your expectation of him? We shouldn’t have given him a max deal then. He can’t even be as consistent as guys like Jamal Murray, Brad Beal, CJ McCollum. Never seen a franchise player who is so easy to get him out of his element.
Lillard is a 1st team All-NBA guy who took his team to the conference finals. Harden is an MVP. Booker is 23 and on a rookie max contract. Those guys are on the bigger max. Jamaal Murray, Bradley Beal, Donovan Mitchell..those are the guys to compare Booker to.

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3rdside
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by 3rdside »

specialsauce wrote:
3rdside wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:32 am
AmareIsGod wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:52 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:33 pm
I’ve seen enough of Montys coaching in close games. Why sub Bridges and Cam out when they were reason #1 and 2 for us going on the huge run with their defense and shooting?

I’ve seen enough of Bookers poor attitude and stagnant play. He has not grown as a player in 2 years.
He’s regressed. He consistently is outplayed by the other teams guards every single night. He’s not an All Star. He’s not even a top 30 player in this league.

I’d be shopping Booker around the league. He’s peaked as a player. I’d look to acquire a package surrounding Holiday and draft picks in a trade for Booker, or to Minny in a three way deal with another team.

Don’t tell me it’s because he’s doubled. Every teams star player gets doubled every night. He’s the only one that is e easiest “star” to shut down.
I think that's a bit of an overaction, on top of the fact that he's on a max deal. He looked pretty dominant early in the season. I'm more concerned he's trying to play through an injury that he should be resting. Clearly something isn't right. And you don't just go from a dominant offensive player, arguably a top 10, top 15 scorer in the league to playing the way he's been playing lately just because you suck, you've peaked, you're a 23 year old on the decline. Something is wrong.
Booker for Jrue works straight up, 4 more yrs vs 2 yrs after this one ...would you do it though? I wouldn't.

Get a third team involved, get rid of TJ in the process, so it doesn't look like a straight Booker / Jrue swap and I'd be open to a trade.

Seems to me Monty preaches share ball where booker has 4 years of playing solo ball and that's a problem..
The scheme is not the problem.

Even when Book has tried to take over he’s taken bad shots, missed good looks, and I can’t count how many times he’s been wild on a fastbreak pushing the ball and turned it over like a big man trying to do too much.

This is not on anyone else but him. Simply put, he just needs to be better. Last year the excuse was he didn’t have a PG or shooters around him.

Rubio scores over 20 last night. Bridges and Cam both made multiple 3s. This is Bookers team. If he’s not the best player on the court the majority of nights, we go nowhere.
Having cooled down a bit, we have had a lot of bad luck this season - bad calls, teams making shots at the end, stupid errors etc etc.

And on booker:

I was calling him a potential to be overrated years ago as his PER (yes, imperfect, but ..) was low even though his scoring was high - due to poor shooting splits mainly - but now his shooting splits are good yet his PER hasn’t gone anywhere, actually it’s down from last year (from ~20 to ~19).

Which suggests the system is getting him better looks, but also making him uncomfortable everywhere else.

He’s obviously good though - and he can pass which I always like - so I’d want him around for the year, not least with him and deandre fucking ayton back in the line up.

But if he’s not performing by year end then ship him and keep the monty / Rubio / .5 second system but with better suited players e.g. booker + change for Jrue and Lonzo ball (or whatever..).





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3rdside
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by 3rdside »

Oh yeah, merry Christmas ...


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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Split T »

PER went down because his usage rate dropped.

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Superbone »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:49 am
Oh yeah, merry Christmas ...
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
"Be Legendary."

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by specialsauce »

Books been a 0 or overall - in 16/27 games he’s played. He’s had at least 5 turnovers in 10/27 games, He’s owns the worst defensive rating on the team. He’s played awful during our losing streak and injuries can’t continue to be an excuse for him each year. If you guys think Booker is having a fine year, I don’t know what to say. He’s having another empty year.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Mori Chu »

24 ppg, 6.4 apg, 4.0 rpg
49.7, 38.2, 90.8% shooting
18.9 PER

It's not a superb season and may not get him his first All-Star nod, but that probably has more to do with our record than anything else. If we were 19-11 rather than 11-19, he'd probably make it as a reserve.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ede01.html

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by AmareIsGod »

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 am
Books been a 0 or overall - in 16/27 games he’s played. He’s had at least 5 turnovers in 10/27 games, He’s owns the worst defensive rating on the team. He’s played awful during our losing streak and injuries can’t continue to be an excuse for him each year. If you guys think Booker is having a fine year, I don’t know what to say. He’s having another empty year.
You don't have to continue to sell how down you are on Booker. We get it. You think he's trash this season and you're all in favor of trading him. Not sure how many ways you have to package your Booker feelings.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by specialsauce »

AmareIsGod wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:39 am
specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 am
Books been a 0 or overall - in 16/27 games he’s played. He’s had at least 5 turnovers in 10/27 games, He’s owns the worst defensive rating on the team. He’s played awful during our losing streak and injuries can’t continue to be an excuse for him each year. If you guys think Booker is having a fine year, I don’t know what to say. He’s having another empty year.
You don't have to continue to sell how down you are on Booker. We get it. You think he's trash this season and you're all in favor of trading him. Not sure how many ways you have to package your Booker feelings.
🤷🏽 Numbers tell a story the heart doesn’t want to accept. I just want to see him play to his potential

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:31 pm
AmareIsGod wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:39 am
specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 am
Books been a 0 or overall - in 16/27 games he’s played. He’s had at least 5 turnovers in 10/27 games, He’s owns the worst defensive rating on the team. He’s played awful during our losing streak and injuries can’t continue to be an excuse for him each year. If you guys think Booker is having a fine year, I don’t know what to say. He’s having another empty year.
You don't have to continue to sell how down you are on Booker. We get it. You think he's trash this season and you're all in favor of trading him. Not sure how many ways you have to package your Booker feelings.
🤷🏽 Numbers tell a story the heart doesn’t want to accept. I just want to see him play to his potential
There are <30 guys in the league scoring over 20 ppg this year. Booker is 5th in TS% and 4th in eFG. That is elite.

What hurts is:
  • Frank Kaminsky has more minutes at Center than anyone on the team, by far.
  • We don't have a reliable backup PG or SG or SF or PF(Cam has been better than I expected at 4, but still not at average backup PF for a playoff team)
  • Mikal as our primary backup 3 has been awful on offense. His defense is still probably best on the team, but if he is a net-negative on the court, it doesn't matter.
  • Ricky is shooting 31% on 3s while being forced to take almost 4 a game.

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Indy »

I should have added that nobody is playing with the same defensive intensity as they did to start the season. That is what really hurts. I think their D was driving a lot of their offensive intensity the first 10 games or so.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Mori Chu »

Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:58 pm
There are <30 guys in the league scoring over 20 ppg this year. Booker is 5th in TS% and 4th in eFG. That is elite.

What hurts is:
  • Frank Kaminsky has more minutes at Center than anyone on the team, by far.
  • We don't have a reliable backup PG or SG or SF or PF(Cam has been better than I expected at 4, but still not at average backup PF for a playoff team)
  • Mikal as our primary backup 3 has been awful on offense. His defense is still probably best on the team, but if he is a net-negative on the court, it doesn't matter.
  • Ricky is shooting 31% on 3s while being forced to take almost 4 a game.
I should have added that nobody is playing with the same defensive intensity as they did to start the season. That is what really hurts. I think their D was driving a lot of their offensive intensity the first 10 games or so.
The injuries and missed games have also hurt a lot. Baynes was a crucial player for us, and he hasn't looked quite himself since his injury. Ayton being gone for 25 games has thrown our whole starting lineup off kilter.

There are plenty of good excuses to go around that don't place the blame on Booker, who is having a good overall season.

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Drewsprocket
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Re: Game Day: Nuggets (19-8) @ Suns (11-18), Mon 12/23/19

Post by Drewsprocket »

Excellent post, Indy. Puts the team into context describing where they are at. Where do they go from here?
My priorities would be sort of obvious:
-Back to their root Defense.
-Get team healthy.
-consider trade market for potential upgrades at 4,1/2 spots (Frank, TJ, Dario, Mikal on the market.)

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