Game Day: Magic (18-20) @ Suns (14-23), Fri 1/10/20

[Split T]

I am as critical of the Ayton-over-Luka pick as anybody. But I don't get all the bashing of Ayton's game. He has lots of flaws and limitations as an NBA player. But it's only his second season, and he's played barely a handful of games this season. He's only 21. Can't we give him more time to learn and grow and improve?

There's a lot to like about him despite his current flaws. I love that he often has really high shooting percentage, like shooting 8-for-11 or thereabouts. I love that he can almost effortlessly pull down 10+ rebounds. I like having a center who can roll to the basket and throw down a thundering dunk. I do like some of his help defense and altering shots.

He still has a ways to go, but some of the posts here are acting like he's a straight up bust or garbage. I don't think that is fair to him.

I’m not seeing any posts saying that. I think everyone acknowledges he’s good. We just have high expectations...which is understandable for a #1 pick.

[Split T]

Why again is setting a screen at the 3 pt line a bad thing?

It’s okay when it’s mixed within the offense. But when that’s the only thing he’s tasked to do in the offense, it’s a total waste. Might as well call him Hakim Warrick. He’s so much more talented than that. We drafted a center #1 just to have him set screens and roll? Really? Any center in the league can do that. Hell Marquese could do that.

Those guys don’t have anywhere close to the gravity that Ayton does. So no, Marquese Chriss and Hakim Warrick could not do what Ayton does. Did you see the roll he had I believe against the Kings? 4 guys crashed in on him and Booker had no one within 10 feet of him. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen Booker have a more open 3.

I understand you want to see him get more opportunities in more diverse offensive situations. I’m sure that’s the ultimate goal, but Ayton has to earn those opportunities. He’s not aggressive enough when he gets the ball at the elbow or in the post. He settles for the mid range jumper too often and he hasn’t shot it very well. His little post turnaround on the baseline has not been going in very often. I’m fine with adding these kind of touches slowly as he gets more comfortable in the offense. Until then, feasting on rolls and by crashing the glass is going to be his primary source of offense.

[Superbone]

I don’t see what the problem with running a screen at the 3 pt line is. If that’s where the ball handler is, that’s where you run the screen. Ayton is more than capable of diving to the rim from the 3 pt line. And like I said last night, Ayton led the team in FGA, he’s not being ignored in the offense. I guess I just don’t understand what you are expecting. What does a game plan built around Book and Ayton look like to you?

We see Baynes set that same screen all the time.

This is exactly the problem. Baynes is a joke. Ayton is not Baynes. He’s not Bo Outlaw. He’s far more offensively gifted around the basket. He’s being treated in the same manner in this offense, but with the expectations of Joel Embiid (and the talent). A gross misuse of his skill.

Why can't Ayton dive to the basket after setting a screen up high? How would you play Ayton? Feed him in the post? He doesn't seem to know what to do in that situation other than shooting a fall away jumper away from his man.

That’s just not true. He’s got a great soft baby right hook. And he’s shown a great quick spin. Just needs more opportunities to get into a rhythm.



Fast forward past 1:45. You’ll see all kinds of hooks.

To be honest, I had forgotten that he had those moves. I haven't seen any of them this year. But that video title is horrible. The Mean Guy? Seriously?

[specialsauce]

He shouldn’t get the ball at the elbow.

In the post when he’s fed consistently he gains confidence and gets in a rhythm. When he hasn’t seen the ball in five minutes and gets a random post touch, he rushes because he is not in a rhythm. You’ve seen what he does when they feed him consistently.

[specialsauce]

We see Baynes set that same screen all the time.

This is exactly the problem. Baynes is a joke. Ayton is not Baynes. He’s not Bo Outlaw. He’s far more offensively gifted around the basket. He’s being treated in the same manner in this offense, but with the expectations of Joel Embiid (and the talent). A gross misuse of his skill.

Why can't Ayton dive to the basket after setting a screen up high? How would you play Ayton? Feed him in the post? He doesn't seem to know what to do in that situation other than shooting a fall away jumper away from his man.

That’s just not true. He’s got a great soft baby right hook. And he’s shown a great quick spin. Just needs more opportunities to get into a rhythm.



Fast forward past 1:45. You’ll see all kinds of hooks.

To be honest, I had forgotten that he had those moves. I haven't seen any of them this year. But that video title is horrible. The Mean Guy? Seriously?

Cringeworthy lol

[Superbone]

I am as critical of the Ayton-over-Luka pick as anybody. But I don't get all the bashing of Ayton's game. He has lots of flaws and limitations as an NBA player. But it's only his second season, and he's played barely a handful of games this season. He's only 21. Can't we give him more time to learn and grow and improve?

There's a lot to like about him despite his current flaws. I love that he often has really high shooting percentage, like shooting 8-for-11 or thereabouts. I love that he can almost effortlessly pull down 10+ rebounds. I like having a center who can roll to the basket and throw down a thundering dunk. I do like some of his help defense and altering shots.

He still has a ways to go, but some of the posts here are acting like he's a straight up bust or garbage. I don't think that is fair to him.

I’m not seeing any posts saying that. I think everyone acknowledges he’s good. We just have high expectations...which is understandable for a #1 pick.

That's what I'm seeing and feeling as well.

[Superbone]

This is exactly the problem. Baynes is a joke. Ayton is not Baynes. He’s not Bo Outlaw. He’s far more offensively gifted around the basket. He’s being treated in the same manner in this offense, but with the expectations of Joel Embiid (and the talent). A gross misuse of his skill.

Why can't Ayton dive to the basket after setting a screen up high? How would you play Ayton? Feed him in the post? He doesn't seem to know what to do in that situation other than shooting a fall away jumper away from his man.

That’s just not true. He’s got a great soft baby right hook. And he’s shown a great quick spin. Just needs more opportunities to get into a rhythm.



Fast forward past 1:45. You’ll see all kinds of hooks.

To be honest, I had forgotten that he had those moves. I haven't seen any of them this year. But that video title is horrible. The Mean Guy? Seriously?

Cringeworthy lol

Hopefully, it's just a matter of time before he gets back to those types of moves. I really want him to do well. The better he does, the better our team becomes. It might not be fair but some of the criticism he gets is due to the fact that he was the #1 overall pick. I think us Suns fans just want him to live up to his potential. We're just going to have to be more patient. Yeah, I know, tough for a fan base that's been out of the playoffs for 10 years straight.

[Indy]

It's because he's soft.

He is. That's what they want to change and why Monty has put him on the bench. And it doesn't seem like it's hurting as I feel Ayton is playing better defense. Boxing out, not so much, but at least he is trying to pay attention to rotations and is looking to deny opposite players, which is paying off since when you are that gifted, many times it's just a matter of showing up.

Now, scoring in the post, first he needs to stablish position, which is also inconsistent at the moment because he doesn't know how to actually seal his defender. He also gets discouraged when he feels he has position but the ball doesn't get to him.

Of couse, the rest of the lineup needs to do a better job at finding him, but a big part of that is having real 3pt threats our there to keep defenses from crowding Ayton (PHI is suffering this with Embiid too), which we annoyingly still lack (21st overall in 3pt%, #13 in attempts per game) despite all the moves made this offseason with that issue in mind.

Unfortunately, Ayton seems to be a guy that can only focus for very limited stretches. Like 2-3 minutes a quarter. And part of it looks to be conditioning, other part is paying attention.

Because he doesn’t touch the ball for 5 minutes at a time. It’s only human nature if you’re not involved, you’ll drift.

I doubt you can find games where he played for 5 minutes straight and didn't touch the ball.

And if he were more efficient in the post, we would feed him more. But he hasn't shown that ability this year, and his suspension only adds to the frustration. At this point we should have been talking about the growth we have seen from our #1 pick in his second year, as he is learning the league.

Instead he was grounded for 25 games, and when he does post up, he is in the bottom quarter of the league for points per shot. We are .2 points per shot better with Rubio taking a 3 than Ayton posting up.

He is capable of doing so much more. Last year he was in the top quarter of the league. And it isn't due to lack of touches. In just his 8 games, he has nearly as many post FGA as anyone else on the team. (He has 29 attempts, Book has 32, Dario 35.) Ayton is getting more post FGA/game this year than last. He just isn't converting it to points, because he is playing soft and fading away from contact.

[Indy]

He shouldn’t get the ball at the elbow.

In the post when he’s fed consistently he gains confidence and gets in a rhythm. When he hasn’t seen the ball in five minutes and gets a random post touch, he rushes because he is not in a rhythm. You’ve seen what he does when they feed him consistently.

Again, he is getting more post FGAs/game this year than last. More than anyone on the team, by a far margin. Actually gets more post FGAs/game than the rest of the team combined.

[JeremyG]

He shouldn’t get the ball at the elbow.

In the post when he’s fed consistently he gains confidence and gets in a rhythm. When he hasn’t seen the ball in five minutes and gets a random post touch, he rushes because he is not in a rhythm. You’ve seen what he does when they feed him consistently.

Exactly, like in the first quarter against the Kings, he had 10 points in the first 6:39. Then they stopped going to him consistently and bench him the next game. Insanity.

When they keep rhythmically feeding him consistently, he is Shaq-like.

[specialsauce]

He shouldn’t get the ball at the elbow.

In the post when he’s fed consistently he gains confidence and gets in a rhythm. When he hasn’t seen the ball in five minutes and gets a random post touch, he rushes because he is not in a rhythm. You’ve seen what he does when they feed him consistently.

Exactly, like in the first quarter against the Kings, he had 10 points in the first 6:39. Then they stopped going to him consistently and bench him the next game. Insanity.

When they keep rhythmically feeding him consistently, he is Shaq-like.

Ding ding ding

[specialsauce]

It's because he's soft.

He is. That's what they want to change and why Monty has put him on the bench. And it doesn't seem like it's hurting as I feel Ayton is playing better defense. Boxing out, not so much, but at least he is trying to pay attention to rotations and is looking to deny opposite players, which is paying off since when you are that gifted, many times it's just a matter of showing up.

Now, scoring in the post, first he needs to stablish position, which is also inconsistent at the moment because he doesn't know how to actually seal his defender. He also gets discouraged when he feels he has position but the ball doesn't get to him.

Of couse, the rest of the lineup needs to do a better job at finding him, but a big part of that is having real 3pt threats our there to keep defenses from crowding Ayton (PHI is suffering this with Embiid too), which we annoyingly still lack (21st overall in 3pt%, #13 in attempts per game) despite all the moves made this offseason with that issue in mind.

Unfortunately, Ayton seems to be a guy that can only focus for very limited stretches. Like 2-3 minutes a quarter. And part of it looks to be conditioning, other part is paying attention.

Because he doesn’t touch the ball for 5 minutes at a time. It’s only human nature if you’re not involved, you’ll drift.

I doubt you can find games where he played for 5 minutes straight and didn't touch the ball.

And if he were more efficient in the post, we would feed him more. But he hasn't shown that ability this year, and his suspension only adds to the frustration. At this point we should have been talking about the growth we have seen from our #1 pick in his second year, as he is learning the league.

Instead he was grounded for 25 games, and when he does post up, he is in the bottom quarter of the league for points per shot. We are .2 points per shot better with Rubio taking a 3 than Ayton posting up.

He is capable of doing so much more. Last year he was in the top quarter of the league. And it isn't due to lack of touches. In just his 8 games, he has nearly as many post FGA as anyone else on the team. (He has 29 attempts, Book has 32, Dario 35.) Ayton is getting more post FGA/game this year than last. He just isn't converting it to points, because he is playing soft and fading away from contact.

You write these things but you’re not paying attention in games in my opinion. If you really think he’s involved enough and they are maximizing him, I don’t know what to tell you. You just have it out for him the second the pick was announced.

[JeremyG]

He shouldn’t get the ball at the elbow.

In the post when he’s fed consistently he gains confidence and gets in a rhythm. When he hasn’t seen the ball in five minutes and gets a random post touch, he rushes because he is not in a rhythm. You’ve seen what he does when they feed him consistently.

Exactly, like in the first quarter against the Kings, he had 10 points in the first 6:39. Then they stopped going to him consistently and bench him the next game. Insanity.

When they keep rhythmically feeding him consistently, he is Shaq-like.

Ding ding ding

Imagine if he got the touches Shaq got, even early in his career. If Ayton was getting over 20 points every night, that would be a huge boost to his confidence and he would stay way more engaged and become a dominant force on both ends of the floor (which we've seen glimpses of, especially in crunch time). For a talent/physical specimen like him, there's no need to "bring him along slowly"--make it simple by feeding him down low and let him dominate.

[INFORMER]

I think if Ayton played like Shaq, he would get the touches Shaq did.

[LazarusLong]

I think if Ayton played like Shaq, he would get the touches Shaq did.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I think if Ayton played like Shaq, he would get the touches Shaq did.

Lets not use them in the same basketball context ever again.

[Superbone]

I think if Ayton played like Shaq, he would get the touches Shaq did.

Lets not use them in the same basketball context ever again.

Yep, totally different playing styles. Can Ayton adopt some of Shaq's? I'd love to see it!

[LazarusLong]

Ayton is more (pre-injury) Ralph Sampson ... (at least potentially)

[Cap]

He has the physical tools but not the mental tools.

[LazarusLong]

He has the physical tools but not the mental tools.

Yes.