Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Mori Chu »

"Screen assists." "Triple double." Gobert looks to have had a great game; there's no need to exaggerate it by using false or misleading terms. What a homer announcer.

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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by azsportsfan »

And I get that "shots contested" is a positive thing, but it is also nearly impossible to measure unless it is an actual block. Whether or not the shot was contested or altered depends upon the person taking the shot. Just because Gobert is around the rim and he is long doesn't mean that the player felt the shot was contested. Is every missed shot then a contested shot? If you are within a foot of the shooter, with your hand up, is that a contested shot whether it goes in or not?

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

Jazz definitely don’t get the coverage they should by national media. Kinda just gotta expect that being from a small market. Their media personalities try to rectify that, but this isn’t the right way. Rudy Gobert is the only player in the league that anyone mentions screen assists about. I understand they’re trying to build up his offensive reputation, but it’s a waste of time. Everyone knows he’s not a good offensive player. They just need to focus on his defense. There was a video of the nets not even being willing to attempt a shot near Rudy. That’s the kind of stuff that needs to get emphasized.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by In2ition »

I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 pm
I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
They don’t ask him to do those things because he’s not capable of doing those things. I’m not saying he doesn’t have offensive value. Good screens are important, rim runs are important. But he does not have tremendous value offensively.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:40 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 pm
I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
They don’t ask him to do those things because he’s not capable of doing those things. I’m not saying he doesn’t have offensive value. Good screens are important, rim runs are important. But he does not have tremendous value offensively.
He's almost unstoppable on his rim runs with a guy like Mitchell driving to the basket on the PnR while surrounded by shooters. It's pick your poison and his efficiency at the rim is about the best in the league the past 4 yrs. Just that efficiency gives him tremendous value offensively. I think you may need to change your mindset of what is valuable and what is not. His Ortg was 133 last year and this yr it's 128 currently w/ .679 TS%. It's like when people used to think that Amare wasn't good because all he could do is dunk, but Amare put up 50 on just dunking. Who gives a darn if he can't shoot an outside shot, since it's not needed and the game is played differently now?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Superbone »

Wait, moving screens? Isn't that illegal?
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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by In2ition »

Superbone wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:20 pm
Wait, moving screens? Isn't that illegal?
Yeah, but for some reason he gets away with it all the time. Not sure why. It was a bit of a joke, putting it in there.
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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:19 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:40 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 pm
I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
They don’t ask him to do those things because he’s not capable of doing those things. I’m not saying he doesn’t have offensive value. Good screens are important, rim runs are important. But he does not have tremendous value offensively.
He's almost unstoppable on his rim runs with a guy like Mitchell driving to the basket on the PnR while surrounded by shooters. It's pick your poison and his efficiency at the rim is about the best in the league the past 4 yrs. Just that efficiency gives him tremendous value offensively. I think you may need to change your mindset of what is valuable and what is not. His Ortg was 133 last year and this yr it's 128 currently w/ .679 TS%. It's like when people used to think that Amare wasn't good because all he could do is dunk, but Amare put up 50 on just dunking. Who gives a darn if he can't shoot an outside shot, since it's not needed and the game is played differently now?
Almost unstoppable, yet he only averages 14 points a game? Why don’t the jazz just give him the ball every time on his rim runs? Comparing Rudy to Amare is laughable. Amare was scoring 25 a game. Amare could face up and beat his man with quickness to the rim. Rudy is just giant and doesn’t ever try any offensive moves other than dunks.

You can’t just take stats like offensive rating and TS% and disregard context. Tyson Chandler is the all time leader in offensive rating. No one would call him the best offensive player in nba history. The stat just tells you how well the team scores when an individual player uses a possession. Of course someone who only dunks is going to have an incredibly high offensive rating. It does not take into consideration what his teammates did to get him that dunk.

So yes, Rudy is very efficient offensively...but that’s because he is so limited offensively. He’s only attempting shots when the degree of difficulty is very low. Mitchell is much less efficient offensively, but he’s given much more responsibility. He’s attempting much more difficult shots.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:57 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:19 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:40 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 pm
I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
They don’t ask him to do those things because he’s not capable of doing those things. I’m not saying he doesn’t have offensive value. Good screens are important, rim runs are important. But he does not have tremendous value offensively.
He's almost unstoppable on his rim runs with a guy like Mitchell driving to the basket on the PnR while surrounded by shooters. It's pick your poison and his efficiency at the rim is about the best in the league the past 4 yrs. Just that efficiency gives him tremendous value offensively. I think you may need to change your mindset of what is valuable and what is not. His Ortg was 133 last year and this yr it's 128 currently w/ .679 TS%. It's like when people used to think that Amare wasn't good because all he could do is dunk, but Amare put up 50 on just dunking. Who gives a darn if he can't shoot an outside shot, since it's not needed and the game is played differently now?
Almost unstoppable, yet he only averages 14 points a game? Why don’t the jazz just give him the ball every time on his rim runs? Comparing Rudy to Amare is laughable. Amare was scoring 25 a game. Amare could face up and beat his man with quickness to the rim. Rudy is just giant and doesn’t ever try any offensive moves other than dunks.

You can’t just take stats like offensive rating and TS% and disregard context. Tyson Chandler is the all time leader in offensive rating. No one would call him the best offensive player in nba history. The stat just tells you how well the team scores when an individual player uses a possession. Of course someone who only dunks is going to have an incredibly high offensive rating. It does not take into consideration what his teammates did to get him that dunk.

So yes, Rudy is very efficient offensively...but that’s because he is so limited offensively. He’s only attempting shots when the degree of difficulty is very low. Mitchell is much less efficient offensively, but he’s given much more responsibility. He’s attempting much more difficult shots.
Of course he's not going to be the focus of the offense, but that doesn't mean he isn't valuable. He's basically the Dunk & D at the center position, but does it better than anyone in the game right now. You're right, they can't go to him often, but he can assist by throwing a great screen and freeing people, and he has a huge target when rolling to the rim. Do you think the Jazz would be as good or better if they replaced him with any number of other centers?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:21 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:57 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:19 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:40 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 pm
I think with what he is asked to do on offensive, he is very good at. He just isn't asked to break someone down one on one, shoot from the perimeter or create through passing. His incredible moving screens, his rim runs and putbacks are elite though. He still has tremendous value on offense, because he's probably the best and most efficient at these. It just doesn't look like Kyrie or KAT.
They don’t ask him to do those things because he’s not capable of doing those things. I’m not saying he doesn’t have offensive value. Good screens are important, rim runs are important. But he does not have tremendous value offensively.
He's almost unstoppable on his rim runs with a guy like Mitchell driving to the basket on the PnR while surrounded by shooters. It's pick your poison and his efficiency at the rim is about the best in the league the past 4 yrs. Just that efficiency gives him tremendous value offensively. I think you may need to change your mindset of what is valuable and what is not. His Ortg was 133 last year and this yr it's 128 currently w/ .679 TS%. It's like when people used to think that Amare wasn't good because all he could do is dunk, but Amare put up 50 on just dunking. Who gives a darn if he can't shoot an outside shot, since it's not needed and the game is played differently now?
Almost unstoppable, yet he only averages 14 points a game? Why don’t the jazz just give him the ball every time on his rim runs? Comparing Rudy to Amare is laughable. Amare was scoring 25 a game. Amare could face up and beat his man with quickness to the rim. Rudy is just giant and doesn’t ever try any offensive moves other than dunks.

You can’t just take stats like offensive rating and TS% and disregard context. Tyson Chandler is the all time leader in offensive rating. No one would call him the best offensive player in nba history. The stat just tells you how well the team scores when an individual player uses a possession. Of course someone who only dunks is going to have an incredibly high offensive rating. It does not take into consideration what his teammates did to get him that dunk.

So yes, Rudy is very efficient offensively...but that’s because he is so limited offensively. He’s only attempting shots when the degree of difficulty is very low. Mitchell is much less efficient offensively, but he’s given much more responsibility. He’s attempting much more difficult shots.
Of course he's not going to be the focus of the offense, but that doesn't mean he isn't valuable. He's basically the Dunk & D at the center position, but does it better than anyone in the game right now. You're right, they can't go to him often, but he can assist by throwing a great screen and freeing people, and he has a huge target when rolling to the rim. Do you think the Jazz would be as good or better if they replaced him with any number of other centers?
We talking just offensively? Offensively there are plenty of Centers they could replace him with and get better. If we’re talking overall, I’m not sure there is a C they’d want to replace him with. They’re identity is defense...losing him would really hurt them defensively. Someone like Embiid would be about the only C that would give them improvement on offense and not hurt them defensively.

Jokic and KAT would obviously help them offensively, but they’d have to drastically change their defensive identity..not sure it would be a positive overall.

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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by INFORMER »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:51 am
There goes INFs proposal to get Teague here. I forgot he was expiring at the same price as TJ.
Yep. Would have loved to swap Rubio for him.
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

Just out of curiosity, how would you guys rank these young pg’s? Rank them on who you’d rather have going forward, not where they are currently.

Morant
SGA
Fox
Trae

I won’t include Fultz, because there are still a lot of questions about him, but wanted to point out he’s having a nice season in Orlando.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

Personally, I know Trae has been phenomenal, but I still think I take the other 3 ahead of him. Morant would for sure be my top choice. SGA/Fox/Trae are all really close, but as good as Trae will be offensively, he’ll always be a negative defensively. These other guys are really good offensively too, without any glaring weaknesses.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Mori Chu »

INFORMER wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:15 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:51 am
There goes INFs proposal to get Teague here. I forgot he was expiring at the same price as TJ.
Yep. Would have loved to swap Rubio for him.
You mean our Rubio who just had 25, 13, and 8, a near triple-double? Second in the league in assists at 9.4, that Rubio? :)

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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 am
Just out of curiosity, how would you guys rank these young pg’s? Rank them on who you’d rather have going forward, not where they are currently.

Morant
SGA
Fox
Trae

I won’t include Fultz, because there are still a lot of questions about him, but wanted to point out he’s having a nice season in Orlando.
I'd go Morant, SGA, Trae, Fox. I think Morant is a bit a head of the pack if I were picking one to keep the next 10 years. After that I think it is a lot closer.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:17 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 am
Just out of curiosity, how would you guys rank these young pg’s? Rank them on who you’d rather have going forward, not where they are currently.

Morant
SGA
Fox
Trae

I won’t include Fultz, because there are still a lot of questions about him, but wanted to point out he’s having a nice season in Orlando.
I'd go Morant, SGA, Trae, Fox. I think Morant is a bit a head of the pack if I were picking one to keep the next 10 years. After that I think it is a lot closer.
Ranked them exactly how I would have

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Mori Chu »

I have a hard time putting SGA ahead of Trae Young. Trae is averaging 29.1 PPG (!!!) and 8.5 assists; he's a legit star. SGA is also wonderful, but he's averaging 20.0 PPG and 3.0 assists. Trae's got his flaws, but the passing and assists along with the much higher scoring make me feel that you gotta put him ahead of SGA.

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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Charlie Smithy! »

Better acronym. SGA, or CDR?

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 12 1/13-1/19

Post by Split T »

Mori Chu wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:32 pm
I have a hard time putting SGA ahead of Trae Young. Trae is averaging 29.1 PPG (!!!) and 8.5 assists; he's a legit star. SGA is also wonderful, but he's averaging 20.0 PPG and 3.0 assists. Trae's got his flaws, but the passing and assists along with the much higher scoring make me feel that you gotta put him ahead of SGA.
He’d average more if they let him play pg. He often shares the court with CP3 and Schroeder. Don’t forget his rebounding and the fact that he’s 6’6 and can effectively defend 3 positions. Trae can’t defend any.

Trae gives you an offensive system all by himself, but with the right teammates, I’d rather have SGA.

Fun fact: Hawks have the worst offense in the entire nba. Now that’s not Trae’s fault, he’s clearly suffering from a similar situation that Booker went through, but something to monitor.

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