Game Day: Suns (19-26) @ Grizzlies (21-24), Sun 1/26/20

[Nodack]

Everybody wants to win and everybody is going to push the rules as far as they can to their favor. It’s up to the refs and the league to make adjustments. I agree with what you guys. The flopping has gotten ridiculous. Also the rules are different depending on the position you play or the position you are on the court. You can’t breath on a guy at the three point line or you will get a foul but, if it’s a center under the basket?

[Indy]

Well there it is. I don't really agree with the call, but definitely would've taken it.

I don't understand how you don't agree with it? Oubre clearly went straight up in his own space and Anderson came into the space and crowded him, then while he was up in the air came underneath him. I'm not quite understanding how this wasn't insanely obvious?

He didn't go straight up. He jumped forward to create contact. they showed it like 5 times on the broadcast; they had a camera angle right along the baseline.

[In2ition]

Well there it is. I don't really agree with the call, but definitely would've taken it.

I don't understand how you don't agree with it? Oubre clearly went straight up in his own space and Anderson came into the space and crowded him, then while he was up in the air came underneath him. I'm not quite understanding how this wasn't insanely obvious?

He didn't go straight up. He jumped forward to create contact. they showed it like 5 times on the broadcast; they had a camera angle right along the baseline.

From the reviews I had, he tried to take his normal shot and Kyle was in his space. The review of this in the 2 minute report backed it that it should have been a foul on Anderson and Oubre should have been at the line shooting 3 shots. There are a lot of examples of players shooting an exaggerated shot, jumping into players to draw fouls...this didn't look like that at all, even though perhaps Kelly may have done it slightly. My issue is that the Suns get the short end of the stick on this every time there is a 2 minute report. Factor in that they also have the lowest rate by far of successfully challenges, and it really is driving me nuts. If it would have been called correctly over the season, it could be very well argued that they would be a .500 team or better right now.

[Indy]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

[In2ition]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

If you're saying that Kelly's shooting motion isn't natural, I guess that's your opinion. You seriously think he made an exaggerated move into Kyle Anderson? He is allowed to go up for the shot and even forward on the shot. But if you really believe that he made an unnatural motion towards Slo Mo, I don't know what to tell you.

If the Suns won less than half of those 7 games, that's still a 6 game swing and they would be 22-24, which is really pretty damn close to .500. If it was 4 games, they are 23-23, which is exactly .500 by my count. Do you see something different? I'm saying that they got screwed in more than half of those games and the 2 minute report shows them getting the short end of the stick in all of them.

[Drewsprocket]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

It’s on the team for sure. I would say nba is due for a rule change because officiating has got out of control and making games lame to watch. Too many touch fouls, too much flopping, maybe create a 3 second rule for the corner 3.

[In2ition]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

It’s on the team for sure. I would say nba is due for a rule change because officiating has got out of control and making games lame to watch. Too many touch fouls, too much flopping, maybe create a 3 second rule for the corner 3.

That's an interesting proposal. One that I would have to think more about.

[Indy]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

If you're saying that Kelly's shooting motion isn't natural, I guess that's your opinion. You seriously think he made an exaggerated move into Kyle Anderson? He is allowed to go up for the shot and even forward on the shot. But if you really believe that he made an unnatural motion towards Slo Mo, I don't know what to tell you.

If the Suns won less than half of those 7 games, that's still a 6 game swing and they would be 22-24, which is really pretty damn close to .500. If it was 4 games, they are 23-23, which is exactly .500 by my count. Do you see something different? I'm saying that they got screwed in more than half of those games and the 2 minute report shows them getting the short end of the stick in all of them.

ha, yeah I guess the math doesn't lie. I just hate blaming refs for our lack of beating teams. We have only been in 9 close games all year (if you go by the final score within 3 points). And we only won 6 games by double digits. But we have lost 11 by double digits. We aren't playing like a 500 team.

The smartest offensive basketball player we have doesn't play defense and his 3pt shot has abandoned him.

Our smartest defensive player can't score a bucket to save his life and hits 3s about as well as Draymond Green.

Our generational center is bigger, stronger, and more athletic than 95% of the centers in the league, but doesn't want to use it.

Our savior FA PG signing is clearly worn out from playing the best basketball of his life over the summer. He can't keep anyone in front of him.

We don't have a back up 1, 2, or 4, and both our back up 5s are injured.

These are all a bit of an exaggeration, but that last game really killed me.

[Indy]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

It’s on the team for sure. I would say nba is due for a rule change because officiating has got out of control and making games lame to watch. Too many touch fouls, too much flopping, maybe create a 3 second rule for the corner 3.

That's an interesting proposal. One that I would have to think more about.

Agreed. If the NBA isn't going to change the court dimensions (that is my biggest wish to deal with the current game dynamics), then this might be interesting...

[In2ition]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

It’s on the team for sure. I would say nba is due for a rule change because officiating has got out of control and making games lame to watch. Too many touch fouls, too much flopping, maybe create a 3 second rule for the corner 3.

That's an interesting proposal. One that I would have to think more about.

Agreed. If the NBA isn't going to change the court dimensions (that is my biggest wish to deal with the current game dynamics), then this might be interesting...

I would also like that they widen the court, but that would take a capital investment by every team and every GLeague team and there are trickle down effects for the rest of the lower leagues.

[In2ition]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

If you're saying that Kelly's shooting motion isn't natural, I guess that's your opinion. You seriously think he made an exaggerated move into Kyle Anderson? He is allowed to go up for the shot and even forward on the shot. But if you really believe that he made an unnatural motion towards Slo Mo, I don't know what to tell you.

If the Suns won less than half of those 7 games, that's still a 6 game swing and they would be 22-24, which is really pretty damn close to .500. If it was 4 games, they are 23-23, which is exactly .500 by my count. Do you see something different? I'm saying that they got screwed in more than half of those games and the 2 minute report shows them getting the short end of the stick in all of them.

ha, yeah I guess the math doesn't lie. I just hate blaming refs for our lack of beating teams. We have only been in 9 close games all year (if you go by the final score within 3 points). And we only won 6 games by double digits. But we have lost 11 by double digits. We aren't playing like a 500 team.

The smartest offensive basketball player we have doesn't play defense and his 3pt shot has abandoned him.

Our smartest defensive player can't score a bucket to save his life and hits 3s about as well as Draymond Green.

Our generational center is bigger, stronger, and more athletic than 95% of the centers in the league, but doesn't want to use it.

Our savior FA PG signing is clearly worn out from playing the best basketball of his life over the summer. He can't keep anyone in front of him.

We don't have a back up 1, 2, or 4, and both our back up 5s are injured.

These are all a bit of an exaggeration, but that last game really killed me.

I don't want to blame the refs either, and I wouldn't if the games were fairly officiated. Unfortunately, there has been a consistent bias and when the games get close enough for a 2 minute report to play out, it's there in black and white. Even the report on the successful and not successful challenges show the Suns at the sizable bottom of the league in rates of successful challenges. Some teams actually win them on a consistent basis, but when was the last time you actually thought they were going to win one, even if it looked obvious? No matter how obvious, I don't think the Suns are going to win it, and when the other team makes a challenge, the pessimistic side of me knows that it's going to be overturned in their favor. We have documented proof that they are biased against the Suns, and it's up to these guys to win at a no doubt rate so that it's not put in the hands of the officials. I guess that's the only way to overcome them. Honestly, if they did an audit on all the Suns games, it would be pretty stark of an indictment of the NBA officials in how they call Suns games vs how they call others. It's gotten to the point that the opposing teams and fans expect the calls to be in their favor when they play the Suns, like it's a freak'n right of theirs.

[Indy]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

[Indy]

I have a hard time blaming the refs for our record this year. We have only lost 7 games all year by 3 or less points. Even if half of them were us getting screwed, we wouldn't be close to a 500 team.

And I agree that many times people get the call that Kelly didn't, which showed up on the 2 minute report (does anyone have a link to those reports?). I just hate the call either way. It wasn't a natural motion.

It’s on the team for sure. I would say nba is due for a rule change because officiating has got out of control and making games lame to watch. Too many touch fouls, too much flopping, maybe create a 3 second rule for the corner 3.

That's an interesting proposal. One that I would have to think more about.

Agreed. If the NBA isn't going to change the court dimensions (that is my biggest wish to deal with the current game dynamics), then this might be interesting...

I would also like that they widen the court, but that would take a capital investment by every team and every GLeague team and there are trickle down effects for the rest of the lower leagues.

I realize it would impact most levels, but you don't have to change it for college or HS or international. The biggest, quickest guys are in the NBA. They need more space to operate. And the capital investment isn't much for 10x94 feet of court. And although it would lose a few rows of seats, the perimeter would of the court would be bigger, so you get more court-side seats. That might offset the costs of the lost seats since you can charge a lot more for court-side.

[In2ition]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

Some of the challenges were bad, but there were others that I was sure it was obvious that it should be overturned. Like the time Booker got called for a foul against DeRozan on what should have been a clear charge, imo. There were others too.

[Indy]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

Some of the challenges were bad, but there were others that I was sure it was obvious that it should be overturned. Like the time Booker got called for a foul against DeRozan on what should have been a clear charge, imo. There were others too.

Booker fell without much contact, and then tripped DeRozan.

[In2ition]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

Some of the challenges were bad, but there were others that I was sure it was obvious that it should be overturned. Like the time Booker got called for a foul against DeRozan on what should have been a clear charge, imo. There were others too.

Booker fell without much contact, and then tripped DeRozan.

Are you an actual Suns fan? jk

DeRozan came pretty clearly out of control and into Booker's space. I think that's evidenced by where his feet were when he finally stopped.(spoiler alert they would have been behind Booker if Booker didn't move and was a ghost) That means he went through Devin's established position, where he was set, and therefore it was a clear charge. Devin certainly didn't trip him on purpose, but since he was knocked over and inside his position his feet were also there. Meaning Devin also didn't fall down and then push his feet forward to where Demar was and impeding him.

How about when White elbowed Booker in the head, and it was ruled out on Devin? Was that also a flop without much contact, or did Devin purposely throw his head into White's elbow?

[Flagrant Fowl]

The officials are bad both ways most nights. It's the timing of the bad calls that determine which team is least lucky.

[Indy]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

Some of the challenges were bad, but there were others that I was sure it was obvious that it should be overturned. Like the time Booker got called for a foul against DeRozan on what should have been a clear charge, imo. There were others too.

Booker fell without much contact, and then tripped DeRozan.

Are you an actual Suns fan? jk

DeRozan came pretty clearly out of control and into Booker's space. I think that's evidenced by where his feet were when he finally stopped.(spoiler alert they would have been behind Booker if Booker didn't move and was a ghost) That means he went through Devin's established position, where he was set, and therefore it was a clear charge. Devin certainly didn't trip him on purpose, but since he was knocked over and inside his position his feet were also there. Meaning Devin also didn't fall down and then push his feet forward to where Demar was and impeding him.

How about when White elbowed Booker in the head, and it was ruled out on Devin? Was that also a flop without much contact, or did Devin purposely throw his head into White's elbow?

ha. yes i am a suns fan for nearly 40 years now. But that has nothing to do with calling out flopping. Devin flopped there, and tripped DeRozan when he flailed on the ground. That is exactly what they called too. they didn't call a charge or a block, but a trip.

White did elbow Book in the head. It should have been called. the baseline ref couldn't see it because he was on the opposite side of the contact, and the outside ref was blocked too.

[In2ition]

Sounds like victim mentality to me. The fact that we lose more challenges than other teams just says we are stupid about how we challenge, not how bad the refs are. It would actually support your position more if we won all of our challenges.

Some of the challenges were bad, but there were others that I was sure it was obvious that it should be overturned. Like the time Booker got called for a foul against DeRozan on what should have been a clear charge, imo. There were others too.

Booker fell without much contact, and then tripped DeRozan.

Are you an actual Suns fan? jk

DeRozan came pretty clearly out of control and into Booker's space. I think that's evidenced by where his feet were when he finally stopped.(spoiler alert they would have been behind Booker if Booker didn't move and was a ghost) That means he went through Devin's established position, where he was set, and therefore it was a clear charge. Devin certainly didn't trip him on purpose, but since he was knocked over and inside his position his feet were also there. Meaning Devin also didn't fall down and then push his feet forward to where Demar was and impeding him.

How about when White elbowed Booker in the head, and it was ruled out on Devin? Was that also a flop without much contact, or did Devin purposely throw his head into White's elbow?

ha. yes i am a suns fan for nearly 40 years now. But that has nothing to do with calling out flopping. Devin flopped there, and tripped DeRozan when he flailed on the ground. That is exactly what they called too. they didn't call a charge or a block, but a trip.

White did elbow Book in the head. It should have been called. the baseline ref couldn't see it because he was on the opposite side of the contact, and the outside ref was blocked too.

I still think that was a BS call and based on the rules it should have been a charge.

[Indy]

its ok to disagree with each other