Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

[iLLmatic]

What that FO did to that '98 Bulls team was borderline criminal. They just decided on a whim that the team was about ready to fall apart, so rather than waiting to see if that was true or trying to restock the team, they just gave up and announced that this would be their last year together. They tell their wildly successful (and underpaid) coach that it's his last season, and openly announce that they're going to trade everybody or let their contracts expire after the season. How can you do that to a six-time NBA championship dynasty? Outrageous. They acted like building the greatest team of all-time was easy and that they'd be rebuilt in a year or two. The sheer hubris of it is as staggering now as it was at the time.

You have to think that if they'd tried to do that in the modern era of social media, they'd get so absolutely publicly roasted for it that they'd have to reconsider.

I liked Jordan's line that the Cubs had been rebuilding for 45 years.

Immediately thought of the Suns. Been over 10 years already, crazy.

[In2ition]

Yeah, it felt like the league was more than willing to bend over backwards to award them the #1 pick a couple times after that, just like they did for Cleveland, and gifting the Lakers the #2 pick 3 times and then jumping them up to #4 last year. Yet, they act like they did the Suns a favor by giving them the #1 pick once in their history and then #4 a couple other times. What a joke... Hell, they gave NO the #1 pick a couple times when they had something happen to them(owner changed and AD asked out).

I didn’t take you for a conspiracy theorist.

It's just convenient, haha. I don't like a system that works by luck when the team I cheer for has had very little of it when it counts.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

[Superbone]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

Yeah, it’s excellent. Just finished e2. Very interesting dynamics. Pippin screwed up taking too long of a deal and then took it out on his team inappropriately. Sure, he was underpaid but who’s fault was that? Waiting until the season started to get his surgery reminded me of Shaq years later although Shaq was getting paid plenty.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

Yeah, it’s excellent. Just finished e2. Very interesting dynamics. Pippin screwed up taking too long of a deal and then took it out on his team inappropriately. Sure, he was underpaid but who’s fault was that? Waiting until the season started to get his surgery reminded me of Shaq years later although Shaq was getting paid plenty.

I have a couple of thoughts about that. The first is that Jerry Reinsdorf is a bit disingenuous here. Jerry Krause comes off way worse, likely deservedly, but Reinsdorf signs the checks and he claims that he knew it was a bad deal for Pippen. He said that he doesn't renegotiate contracts, which is awfully convenient when he knows that he has a top 5 player locked into a way below market level contract. If he actually cared about winning and keeping the team together he'd have renegotiated that deal in the summer of '97, but he ultimately chose Krause and rebuilding over Jordan and Pippen. Basically, he totally fucked that up and is completely willing to throw a dead guy under the bus in 2019.

My other thought is that the player/owner power balance is totally out of whack. Players had next to zero leverage at that time and there have been recent situations where I think they have too much control. It's borderline insane how much control some players have over their organization, similar but also different to the decade when high school kids were draft eligible. Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization. Yet that's the trend we've seen since The Decision.

[Superbone]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

Yeah, it’s excellent. Just finished e2. Very interesting dynamics. Pippin screwed up taking too long of a deal and then took it out on his team inappropriately. Sure, he was underpaid but who’s fault was that? Waiting until the season started to get his surgery reminded me of Shaq years later although Shaq was getting paid plenty.

I have a couple of thoughts about that. The first is that Jerry Reinsdorf is a bit disingenuous here. Jerry Krause comes off way worse, likely deservedly, but Reinsdorf signs the checks and he claims that he knew it was a bad deal for Pippen. He said that he doesn't renegotiate contracts, which is awfully convenient when he knows that he has a top 5 player locked into a way below market level contract. If he actually cared about winning and keeping the team together he'd have renegotiated that deal in the summer of '97, but he ultimately chose Krause and rebuilding over Jordan and Pippen. Basically, he totally fucked that up and is completely willing to throw a dead guy under the bus in 2019.

My other thought is that the player/owner power balance is totally out of whack. Players had next to zero leverage at that time and there have been recent situations where I think they have too much control. It's borderline insane how much control some players have over their organization, similar but also different to the decade when high school kids were draft eligible. Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization. Yet that's the trend we've seen since The Decision.

Good stuff, FF. Interesting dynamics for sure both ways over the years and a shift in power. I did not realize Krause was no longer with us. Did you know he was a one time scout for the Suns? I just glanced through his Wikipedia page.

[ShelC]

Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization.

It's a superstar league tho and players are the product/money makers so owners will almost always acquiesce. Look at the Nets and their "culture" now that KD and Kyrie are there. 9 out of 10 coaches and execs can easily be replaced, a LeBron/Durant/Curry not so much.

[O_Gardino]

Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization.

It's a superstar league tho and players are the product/money makers so owners will almost always acquiesce. Look at the Nets and their "culture" now that KD and Kyrie are there. 9 out of 10 coaches and execs can easily be replaced, a LeBron/Durant/Curry not so much.

I don't think FF wants the players to have no voice. He just want's more balance.

I thought of the numerous reports of star players pressuring management to sign their friends, or stars publicly siding with certain players during contract negotiations. I think that should be considered tampering and should have consequences. Players should have the freedom and control over their own contracts that they do now, but not the so much influence over the roster as a whole.

[ShelC]

Yea but are you really going to alienate a guy like LeBron? The Cavs bent over backwards for him and he still left. Miami had more discipline in dealing with him and kept to their program, he got his title and left anyway. Now the Knicks, being the Knicks, always cow-tow to stars and even non-stars (signing JR Smith's brother who couldn't even play in SL). But that's why they're the Knicks.

I really don't think it's that rampant throughout the league. Only a few players have that kind of leverage.

[O_Gardino]

I wouldn't leave it up to the teams to make that call. I'd make it a league rule, similar to the tampering rules against teams publicly recruiting players under contract with another team. Would players and agents still tamper behind closed doors? Sure, but it would hold a lot less weight.

I don't actually think teams are as concerned about managing players as they are about managing public image. Most of the media and fans would flip their lid if the Cavs didn't give Tristan Thompson that big contract after James publicly endorsed him. And it's not just James. Posters here commented on how stupid our front office is after just the rumor that the Suns considered trading Oubre without consulting Booker.

If they just take those conversations behind closed doors (like any professional at any company), it balances out the power dynamic a bit.

[Mori Chu]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

I would watch one about the 2000-2010s Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs. Or one about the Lebron-Wade-Bosh Heat. Or one about the prime Curry-Klay-Draymond(-KG) Warriors. Going back I'd watch one about the Showtime Lakers, the '80s Celtics (maybe both in one, about their rivalry?), or the Russell Celtics. These dynasties are fun to watch and they all have fun stories to tell. I'd also watch a doc about the 1992 Dream Team. They have a whole series here if they want to produce it.

[In2ition]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

I would watch one about the 2000-2010s Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs. Or one about the Lebron-Wade-Bosh Heat. Or one about the prime Curry-Klay-Draymond(-KG) Warriors. Going back I'd watch one about the Showtime Lakers, the '80s Celtics (maybe both in one, about their rivalry?), or the Russell Celtics. These dynasties are fun to watch and they all have fun stories to tell. I'd also watch a doc about the 1992 Dream Team. They have a whole series here if they want to produce it.

Don't they have a 30 for 30 about the Celtics/Lakers rivalry already?

[Shabazz]

They also have a good doc about the Dream Team.

[Shabazz]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

Yeah, it’s excellent. Just finished e2. Very interesting dynamics. Pippin screwed up taking too long of a deal and then took it out on his team inappropriately. Sure, he was underpaid but who’s fault was that? Waiting until the season started to get his surgery reminded me of Shaq years later although Shaq was getting paid plenty.

I have a couple of thoughts about that. The first is that Jerry Reinsdorf is a bit disingenuous here. Jerry Krause comes off way worse, likely deservedly, but Reinsdorf signs the checks and he claims that he knew it was a bad deal for Pippen. He said that he doesn't renegotiate contracts, which is awfully convenient when he knows that he has a top 5 player locked into a way below market level contract. If he actually cared about winning and keeping the team together he'd have renegotiated that deal in the summer of '97, but he ultimately chose Krause and rebuilding over Jordan and Pippen. Basically, he totally fucked that up and is completely willing to throw a dead guy under the bus in 2019.

My other thought is that the player/owner power balance is totally out of whack. Players had next to zero leverage at that time and there have been recent situations where I think they have too much control. It's borderline insane how much control some players have over their organization, similar but also different to the decade when high school kids were draft eligible. Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization. Yet that's the trend we've seen since The Decision.

This is also partially the owners fault. They didn’t like the max contract length because they couldn’t trust themselves not to hand out dumb contracts, so they pushed for shorter deals. Shorter deals means fewer years that the players are under team control and it allows the players to begin wielding leverage after 2/3 years.

[O_Gardino]

Very good point, 'bazz.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Clearly players and coaches are the most important part of team success, but they can't be given authority over management and ownership and expect to create a successful organization.

It's a superstar league tho and players are the product/money makers so owners will almost always acquiesce. Look at the Nets and their "culture" now that KD and Kyrie are there. 9 out of 10 coaches and execs can easily be replaced, a LeBron/Durant/Curry not so much.

Those guys are the exceptions. Throw in AD, Kawhi and Harden.

My issue is with guys like Jimmy Butler, KAT, Booker, Beal, etc. Guys who are max level but could likely never be the best guy on a title team. Giving them authority over the roster/coach/management is a recipe for failure.

[Cap]

My issue is with guys like Jimmy Butler, KAT, Booker, Beal, etc. Guys who are max level but could likely never be the best guy on a title team.

If Chauncey Billups can do it...

[The Bobster]

I love the first two episodes of The Last Dance. I wish we could get this kind of thing more often, but it seems like a lightning in a bottle situation on many fronts.

I would watch one about the 2000-2010s Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs. Or one about the Lebron-Wade-Bosh Heat. Or one about the prime Curry-Klay-Draymond(-KG) Warriors. Going back I'd watch one about the Showtime Lakers, the '80s Celtics (maybe both in one, about their rivalry?), or the Russell Celtics. These dynasties are fun to watch and they all have fun stories to tell. I'd also watch a doc about the 1992 Dream Team. They have a whole series here if they want to produce it.

The 1976-80 Blazers and the disintegration of that team would be interesting too.

The 1976-83 Sixers from trading for Julius Erving to signing Moses Malone and finally winning a championship

And the 2009-12 Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder and the choice their front office made in not keeping them together.

[Mori Chu]

Anybody else watch the two episodes of The Last Dance yesterday? Ep 3-4 were mostly about Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson. Such a fun series. I have been really enjoying them. I never much cared for the Rodman circus stuff, though seeing him play and rebound was something special.

[In2ition]

From the outside all those years, it seemed that the Rodman circus would be a huge distraction and wondered about him, but it seemed that he was a generally good guy and was super competitive on the court. Honestly, probably something of like Draymond is now.