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Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:48 pm
by Superbone
Horace Grant lays into 'snitch' Michael Jordan over 'so-called' documentary: 'Let's settle this like men'

https://sports.yahoo.com/horace-grant-l ... 48162.html

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:35 am
by Mori Chu
Settle this like men? Blech. These guys should let go of their 25-year-old beefs. It looks so lame to still be worked up about something from so long ago.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:50 am
by ShelC
Yea honestly. Even other players, Wennington I think, said they knew it was Grant who talked to Smith. Never liked Grant, always thought he was overrated. Now it seems he was overrated and kinda petty. Thought he was better than he was, left for Orlando and was pretty much the same player as he was in Chicago. Kinda reminds me of Draymond.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:19 am
by Indy
There are a lot of guys that are talking out from what I was reading. When MJ produces his own documentary, it is only going to show him in the best possible light.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:45 am
by ShelC
Of course, it was pretty much his production and he had final say. Even calling it a documentary is misleading because it wasn't told from an objective viewpoint.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:03 am
by Indy
ShelC wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:45 am
Of course, it was pretty much his production and he had final say. Even calling it a documentary is misleading because it wasn't told from an objective viewpoint.
Exactly. It should be promoted as a MJ promotional video.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:29 am
by Mori Chu
They should have called it, A SPECTACULAR MOVIE! by Michael Jordan!

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:10 am
by ShelC
Sad news:


Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:48 am
by Indy
I always assumed it would be the smoking that did him in. Phil gets a lot of accolades, but I think Jerry was a better coach. How well did Phil do when he didn't have the most dominant player in the game on his team, along with a couple other all stars?

For my money, Jerry is probably #2 behind Pop as best coaches in my lifetime.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:17 am
by Mori Chu
You know the truly great coaches because they get the most out of their talent. Popovich is always elevating guys who seem like they should hardly be in the league, yet somehow he makes them into valuable rotation players who matter in a playoff series. Sloan did that, too. If you look up and down those Utah rosters, many of them had no business being rotation guys, but he maximized their talents. RIP Coach Sloan, one of the greats.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 12:21 pm
by Indy
He is also one of those guys that should be thought of as a really good player and a top tier coach. Not sure how many of them there are. Anybody know how to check how many multi-year all-star players ended up in the Hall of Fame as a coach?


I still can't believe he was never COTY...

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 12:41 pm
by Split T
Indy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:21 pm
He is also one of those guys that should be thought of as a really good player and a top tier coach. Not sure how many of them there are. Anybody know how to check how many multi-year all-star players ended up in the Hall of Fame as a coach?


I still can't believe he was never COTY...
I did a quick glance at a list of multi year all stars...the ones that stuck out as good coaches were Lenny Wilkens(HOF for both player and coach) Paul Westphal, and Doug Collins. I don’t think Westphal and Collins are HOF coaches, but coached some good teams.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:23 pm
by Indy
Split T wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:41 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:21 pm
He is also one of those guys that should be thought of as a really good player and a top tier coach. Not sure how many of them there are. Anybody know how to check how many multi-year all-star players ended up in the Hall of Fame as a coach?


I still can't believe he was never COTY...
I did a quick glance at a list of multi year all stars...the ones that stuck out as good coaches were Lenny Wilkens(HOF for both player and coach) Paul Westphal, and Doug Collins. I don’t think Westphal and Collins are HOF coaches, but coached some good teams.
I didn't get to see Lenny or Doug as players, and only Westy in clips of his playing days. But I would say Jerry was quite a bit ahead of all of them on the coaching front. I am not sure I can think of a better/equal coach that was also a better player.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:38 pm
by LazarusLong
Sloan combined with Norm Van Lier to give the Bulls one of the best defensive backcourts of that or any era.
Jerry was a very tough customer as a player.
His work ethic was the foundation for his coaching style.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:06 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
Also of note, Deron Williams and Jerry Sloan reconciled two years ago.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:22 am
by INFORMER
ShelC wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:45 am
Of course, it was pretty much his production and he had final say. Even calling it a documentary is misleading because it wasn't told from an objective viewpoint.
Did you really think it lacked objectivity? It didn't hide from Jordan's faults, nor did it paint him as a saint. I think it absolutely is a documentary.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:28 am
by ShelC
I didn't think it was overly biased but it's tough to call it objective when the subject of the series has final say over what's included, not included, how it's put together, etc. Sure, it was an MJ "documentary" if you want to get into semantics but it might've been different if ESPN or someone else had final say over the series. Jordan's always been protective of his image and brand. He wouldn't have agreed to it under different circumstances.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:08 am
by Split T
The biggest example to me was when talking about the Sonics series...Jordan laughs off the idea that Gary Payton had any effect on him. Jordan’s numbers were drastically worse with Payton defending him that series. No mention of that though. The idea was to show Jordan as the goat. Anything that went against that idea was left out.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 am
by The Bobster
Indy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:21 pm
He is also one of those guys that should be thought of as a really good player and a top tier coach. Not sure how many of them there are. Anybody know how to check how many multi-year all-star players ended up in the Hall of Fame as a coach?


I still can't believe he was never COTY...
Off the top of my head? If you include guys with more than one NBA or ABA All-Star game -

Lenny Wilkens
Bill Sharman
Rudy Tomjanovich
Larry Brown
Tom Heinsohn

Heinsohn, Williams, Sharman and John Wooden are the only four inducted as players and coaches.

Also, Red Holzman and Wooden were All-NBL players before the NBL merged with the BAA to form the NBA and the first All-Star Game was played (1951).


Doug Moe probably should be on this list but he hasn't been elected as a coach yet.

Re: Around the League: Week 20 3/9-3/15

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:34 am
by The Bobster
Indy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:23 pm
I didn't get to see Lenny or Doug as players, and only Westy in clips of his playing days. But I would say Jerry was quite a bit ahead of all of them on the coaching front. I am not sure I can think of a better/equal coach that was also a better player.
Wilkens was 9-time All-Star in the Jerry West/Oscar Robertson/Hal Greer/Walt Frazier era, so he really is somewhat underrated. He was named to the 50 greatest player list in 1996.

In addition to being the best player on the 1972 Olympic team and the first pick in the 1973 draft, Collins was a four-time All-Star before chronic knee problems did him in. Good shooter and scorer (he shot over 50% as a guard), but somewhat overlooked because he played alongside Julius Erving and George McGinnis in Philadelphia.