Washington Redskins to change team name

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Mori Chu
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Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 am

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/294 ... -name-logo

Thoughts? Overdue, or overreaction? I think it's good to change team names that use an ethnic group as a mascot. Indians, Redskins, it isn't the best. We wouldn't condone a team called the Boston Bimbos or the Nashville Negros or something like that.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by O_Gardino » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 am

Boston Celtics?
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by ShelC » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:09 am

Overdue and Snyder's only changing the name because of sponsor threats. He's not doing it because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because of money.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Cap » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:12 am

O_Gardino wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 am
Boston Celtics?
They’re just called that because they sell tix, hence the nonstandard pronunciatIon.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by O_Gardino » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:16 am

Cap wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:12 am
O_Gardino wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 am
Boston Celtics?
They’re just called that because they sell tix, hence the nonstandard pronunciatIon.
lololol

Had to read it twice. That's a nice one.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Superbone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:44 am

Is 'Indians' derogatory? They are the indigenous people of America, are they not? I'm asking because I don't know. 'Redskins' IS understandably derogatory and had to go.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Superbone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:46 am

O_Gardino wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:16 am
Cap wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:12 am
O_Gardino wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 am
Boston Celtics?
They’re just called that because they sell tix, hence the nonstandard pronunciatIon.
lololol

Had to read it twice. That's a nice one.
I didn't get it until a 3rd or 4th reading due to you calling it out! I got the pronunciation part first (soft 'c' versus hard 'c') and then finally the two word sound alike.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Superbone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:47 am

And zero points for the owner as he only did it due to sponsor pressure.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by In2ition » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:51 am

Cowboys?

Do college names count?

Notre Dame Fighting Irish?
Roughriders?
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:54 am

I meant to put this thread in the General section; oh well. Fail.
Is 'Indians' derogatory? They are the indigenous people of America, are they not? I'm asking because I don't know. 'Redskins' IS understandably derogatory and had to go.
The word "Indians" I don't think is derogatory by itself, though I think "Native Americans" is preferred. The argument against "Indians" (and maybe "Braves"?) is less against the isolated offensiveness of the word and more about the idea of using an ethnic group as a mascot. I am not the perfect representative to make the argument, but my understanding is that it's seen as offensive by some. Presenting an ethnic group as a mascot implies some kind of control or subservience over that group, and could be considered appropriation. It's a bit like wearing an "Indian" or "Mexican guy with sombrero" Halloween costume. I personally don't take huge offense to such things, but I am a straight white male, so it doesn't directly affect me. I would prefer to follow the wishes of those groups in such matters.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Split T » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:56 am

Superbone wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:44 am
Is 'Indians' derogatory? They are the indigenous people of America, are they not? I'm asking because I don't know. 'Redskins' IS understandably derogatory and had to go.
I think it’s questionable. They’ve gone away from using Chief Wahoo as a mascot, which is good. Honestly I’d listen to Native American groups, if they find it offensive or questionable at all, just change it. They were the Cleveland Spiders originally. Just go back to that. Or they are often called The Tribe. Cleveland Tribe seems better.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by In2ition » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:27 am

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 am
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/294 ... -name-logo

Thoughts? Overdue, or overreaction? I think it's good to change team names that use an ethnic group as a mascot. Indians, Redskins, it isn't the best. We wouldn't condone a team called the Boston Bimbos or the Nashville Negros or something like that.
Do the WSU or BYU Cougars count? ;)
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by The Bobster » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:52 am

Split T wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:56 am
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:44 am
Is 'Indians' derogatory? They are the indigenous people of America, are they not? I'm asking because I don't know. 'Redskins' IS understandably derogatory and had to go.
I think it’s questionable. They’ve gone away from using Chief Wahoo as a mascot, which is good. Honestly I’d listen to Native American groups, if they find it offensive or questionable at all, just change it. They were the Cleveland Spiders originally. Just go back to that. Or they are often called The Tribe. Cleveland Tribe seems better.
The Spiders were a National League team in the 1800's. The Indians used to go by Blues and Naps. but I would certainly think Spiders is the favorite if they do rename the team.

As for Indians being offensive or not, it's a misnomer since, well, they aren't from India, and since there are some Native Americans making the point that they are a race of people not a mascot I'm fine with renaming them. The Braves, Chiefs and Warriors all have similar origins and differing levels of insensitivity (the Chiefs were actually named after Lamar Hunt's nickname and they attached the obvious Native American imagery. The Warriors started with Native American imagery, but have moved away from it entirely over the years. The Braves are the most problematic with their use of the Tomahawk Chop, and continued use of imagery (including the tomahawk, on what I think are some of the best uniforms around).

The Chiefs can probably get by with the name and Arrowhead logo, but could always go in the direction of changing to a Fire Chief mascot like the minor league Peoria Chiefs did if force to make a change (something like a fireman's axe replacing the arrowhead on their helmets. The Warriors are fine as is. The Braves will probably always be a problem as long as they embrace the "warrior brave" imagery and certainly the tomahawk chop has to go.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Indy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:40 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:54 am
I meant to put this thread in the General section; oh well. Fail.
Is 'Indians' derogatory? They are the indigenous people of America, are they not? I'm asking because I don't know. 'Redskins' IS understandably derogatory and had to go.
The word "Indians" I don't think is derogatory by itself, though I think "Native Americans" is preferred. The argument against "Indians" (and maybe "Braves"?) is less against the isolated offensiveness of the word and more about the idea of using an ethnic group as a mascot. I am not the perfect representative to make the argument, but my understanding is that it's seen as offensive by some. Presenting an ethnic group as a mascot implies some kind of control or subservience over that group, and could be considered appropriation. It's a bit like wearing an "Indian" or "Mexican guy with sombrero" Halloween costume. I personally don't take huge offense to such things, but I am a straight white male, so it doesn't directly affect me. I would prefer to follow the wishes of those groups in such matters.
exactly. races shouldn't be mascots (ignoring the fact that native americans are not indians).

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by O_Gardino » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:45 pm

In2ition wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:51 am
Cowboys?

Do college names count?

Notre Dame Fighting Irish?
Roughriders?
Fighting Irish absolutely is a racial stereotype, but historically Irish Americans have been proud of that reputation, so they haven't complained.

Cowboys is a great one to bring up. IMO, it can help show why Native Americans don't like being used as a mascot.

Cowboys aren't a real people group. Cowboy is one kind of ideal that a person might want to be. It's an identity people choose, or a way they think about themselves. Same with Warriors, Rangers, etc. Celtics, Trojans, etc are also not 'real' people. They are an idea of a historic people. While real Trojans in history were a diverse culture of subcultures and individuals, Trojan as a mascot only refers to one specific idea of what a person could aspire to be.

Indians are real people. There isn't one way to be an Indian. There isn't one way an Indian looks or dresses. There isn't one set of character traits or physical skills an Indian might have. Making that people group a mascot shows that people don't remember that real live Native Americans actually live and exist as diverse people.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:00 pm

My general sense here is that the opinion of actual Native Americans is what matters most in this context. Just to try to put some data to it, it looks like there have been some polls and surveys given to Native Americans asking them how they felt about this team name, mascot, and imagery. In the most recent data I could find, about 2/3 (67%) of those asked said they were strongly offended by the team. The number was highest among Native Americans who actively participate in the tribal culture and observe its rituals regularly.

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/na ... ts-survey/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingto ... _Americans

Clearly there are also some Native Americans who don't mind the team name, but the majority oppose it. So to me that's a good signal that it should be changed.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by In2ition » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:55 pm

It's interesting that some tribes like it and other don't. Like the University of Illinois Illini and Florida State Seminoles are OK, but the University of North Dakota Sioux were not.
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Superbone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:22 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:54 am
I meant to put this thread in the General section; oh well. Fail.
Yeah, I was totally confused why this was in Suns/NBA. Not even sure if General is the place for it but I guess it's not politics or religion.
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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by Nodack » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:26 pm

New poll finds 9 in 10 Native Americans aren’t offended by Redskins name
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ne ... story.html

New poll finds 90 percent of Native Americans not offended by Redskins name
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wa ... skins-name

Dear white people, stop telling Native Americans like me whether we're offended by the Washington Redskins
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/wa ... 58881.html

Washington Redskins name opinion polls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingto ... nion_polls

"American Indians" derives from the colonizers' world-view and is therefore not the real name of anyone. It is a name given to people by outsiders, not by themselves. Why should we use any name given to a people by someone other than themselves?

Native American vs. American Indian: Political correctness dishonors traditional chiefs of old

https://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/l ... efs-of-old

https://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/name.html

Redskin
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Several terms redirect here. For other uses, see Redskin (disambiguation)
Redskin is a slang term for Native Americans in the United States and First Nations in Canada. The term "redskin" underwent pejoration through the 19th to early 20th centuries[1] and in contemporary dictionaries of American English it is labeled "usually offensive",[2] "disparaging",[3][4] "insulting",[5] or "taboo".[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redskin

The origin of the choice of "red" to describe Native Americans in English is debated. While related terms were used in anthropological literature as early as the 17th century, labels based on skin-color entered everyday speech around the middle of the 18th century. "At the start of the eighteenth century, Indians and Europeans rarely mentioned the color of each other's skins. By midcentury, remarks about skin color and the categorization of peoples by simple color-coded labels (red, white, black) had become commonplace."[7]

Although the term has almost disappeared from common use, it remains as the name of many sports teams. Most prominent was the Washington Redskins, and the term's meaning has been a significant point of controversy. After decades of resistance to change by the owner, management and fans, major sponsors responded to calls to end systemic racism in the wake of the killing of George Floyd by advocating a name change. On July 3rd, 2020, Washington owner Dan Snyder and team management announced a process of review would begin.[8][9] On July 13, 2020 the team made an official statement that their review would result in the retirement of the Redskins name and logo.[10]
Last edited by Nodack on Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Washington Redskins to change team name

Post by In2ition » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:37 pm

I'm not sure what to think about those polls.
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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