Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Superbone » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:38 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:30 am
:shock: I went full Superbone. Sorry for the response-spam.
I love it! I can knock it off though if it bothers people. If what you posted is spam, I am in trailer park heaven! (No offense to those of you who live in trailer parks and/or love spam.)
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Superbone » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:43 pm

In2ition wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:17 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:19 pm
Does anybody at this point think DA is ever going to be anything but a less motivated, slightly better offensive touch Clint Capela?
He's still young, and I think he can be more. He's just thinking too much every time he touches the ball, imo. Trust me, I want him to be more aggressive, dunk everything and intimidate opposing teams and players, but idk what his problem is. It's like he's afraid of dunking the ball, maybe because the rim hurts his hands when he goes hard at it? I have no clue on the cause for this.
I need to let go of the fact that he was the number one pick and we could have had Doncic. I need to pretend like he was picked 6th like somebody else mentioned. Then I wouldn't be so frustrated maybe. He's never going to be that dominant guy, I just have to face facts. Last night was a pretty good game for him. I need to lower my expectations like the classic Mad TV skit.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season!

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Split T » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm

Ayton seems to be a very pattern based player. He doesn’t improvise and adjust. He just does what he’s learned. In his defense, he’s proven to be a quick learner, but he’s never been an instinctually aggressive player. That’s going to take time to teach. Whether that’s even teachable is another question.

But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening. I’ve seen him catch the ball in the post, completely uncovered and go immediately to that baseline fall away jumper. It’s why you can throw a 6’3 guard on him in the post and he still might pass the ball out. He treats every defender the same. I’m not sure how you teach him to recognize when he’s got an advantage, but that’s a big thing he needs to learn.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Superbone » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:47 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm
But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening.
It also shows me that he doesn't have an aggressive nature. Amare was always ready to dunk the ball ferociously at any time. He was looking for those opportunities. Ayton is not.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season!

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Split T » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:51 pm

Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:47 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm
But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening.
It also shows me that he doesn't have an aggressive nature. Amare was always ready to dunk the ball ferociously at any time. He was looking for those opportunities. Ayton is not.
Yep, gotta reprogram him. I think we’ll know this year whether it’s gonna work.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Aztec Sunsfan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:13 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm
Ayton seems to be a very pattern based player. He doesn’t improvise and adjust. He just does what he’s learned. In his defense, he’s proven to be a quick learner, but he’s never been an instinctually aggressive player. That’s going to take time to teach. Whether that’s even teachable is another question.

But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening. I’ve seen him catch the ball in the post, completely uncovered and go immediately to that baseline fall away jumper. It’s why you can throw a 6’3 guard on him in the post and he still might pass the ball out. He treats every defender the same. I’m not sure how you teach him to recognize when he’s got an advantage, but that’s a big thing he needs to learn.
Really interesting, it fits to many more plays from DA.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by bajanguy008 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:16 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm
Ayton seems to be a very pattern based player. He doesn’t improvise and adjust. He just does what he’s learned. In his defense, he’s proven to be a quick learner, but he’s never been an instinctually aggressive player. That’s going to take time to teach. Whether that’s even teachable is another question.

But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening. I’ve seen him catch the ball in the post, completely uncovered and go immediately to that baseline fall away jumper. It’s why you can throw a 6’3 guard on him in the post and he still might pass the ball out. He treats every defender the same. I’m not sure how you teach him to recognize when he’s got an advantage, but that’s a big thing he needs to learn.
Think this is a spot on take Split and there's this from last night also



It's like DA is saying, yes coach and CP showed me on film that the D will sink and I should have the swing pass to one of the corner shooters. Already planning to do that fore he caught the ball so like you said not instinctive to look to score in the first place so didn't seize the chance but hey the Instructions right now are run the court and look to get early deep position and at least he's doing that.
His speed down court usually beating his man and creating couple open looks for trail wing 3s when the D recovering
To be continued lol
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by In2ition » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:50 pm

Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:43 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:17 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:19 pm
Does anybody at this point think DA is ever going to be anything but a less motivated, slightly better offensive touch Clint Capela?
He's still young, and I think he can be more. He's just thinking too much every time he touches the ball, imo. Trust me, I want him to be more aggressive, dunk everything and intimidate opposing teams and players, but idk what his problem is. It's like he's afraid of dunking the ball, maybe because the rim hurts his hands when he goes hard at it? I have no clue on the cause for this.
I need to let go of the fact that he was the number one pick and we could have had Doncic. I need to pretend like he was picked 6th like somebody else mentioned. Then I wouldn't be so frustrated maybe. He's never going to be that dominant guy, I just have to face facts. Last night was a pretty good game for him. I need to lower my expectations like the classic Mad TV skit.
I agree with this...unfortunately.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:45 pm
Ayton seems to be a very pattern based player. He doesn’t improvise and adjust. He just does what he’s learned. In his defense, he’s proven to be a quick learner, but he’s never been an instinctually aggressive player. That’s going to take time to teach. Whether that’s even teachable is another question.

But when I see plays like the one last night where he hesitated in the lane, it just reinforces my thought. He’s programmed to expect a defender to be there. So his reactions are based on what he’s expecting and not what is actually happening. I’ve seen him catch the ball in the post, completely uncovered and go immediately to that baseline fall away jumper. It’s why you can throw a 6’3 guard on him in the post and he still might pass the ball out. He treats every defender the same. I’m not sure how you teach him to recognize when he’s got an advantage, but that’s a big thing he needs to learn.
I agree. This is is the long form of what I meant when I said two days ago that he couldn't read the defense.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:17 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:15 am
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:02 am
I didn't pay much attention to his D, and it is early in the season, and he may have been part paid as a locker room guy, but I still admire your optimism - his stats from last year don't seem to warrant it and he's definitely lost at the moment with a negative PER ranking him the 6th worst player in the NBA based on that.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/s ... s/_/page/7
I'm not trying to call out 3rdside here, since there has been a lot of takes on Carter lately. I just want to put his pre-bubble stats out there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... :pgl_basic

Code: Select all

First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2019-10-23	2020-03-10	50	2	15.1	1.6	4.1	.400	0.9	2.3	.393	0.4	0.5	.840	0.5	1.5	2.0	1.3	0.8	0.3	0.6	1.5	4.6	3.8	-1.7
The 3 point shooting was there all season,The steals and blocks were good for 15 minutes, his assists and rebounding were OK, and he didn't turn the ball over much. His only problem was that he couldn't (still can't) drive and create. I guess his height is a problem, too. Overall, he was effective last year.

Dunno if he's worth what he got, but he's a legit rotation player. I'm not going to sweat his shooting this season after only 4 games.
Feel free to call me out OG - that's what we're here for.

I went back and checked his last season per 36 numbers - 11pts 4.5rb 3ast - and they aren't a whole lot better but you're right that his shooting %'s are good, but I knew that yesterday when I made the post.

So maybe I'm overreacting after a few bad games but yesterday was the worst of all of them - literally every time he touched the ball it went wrong. I'll take Galloway and Payne for $2m all day vs him.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by O_Gardino » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:24 pm

There's no question that Payne has out played him, and Galloway's shooting is at a whole different level.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by jonh » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:41 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:24 pm
There's no question that Payne has out played him, and Galloway's shooting is at a whole different level.
Its a long and demanding season, and I bet we will see playing time fluctuate more this year than in previous years, based both on the schedule and who has the hot hand. I think Carter will have games/weeks where he is a factor in the games, just like he was last year.

Im grateful for how deep the team seems right now.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Indy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:48 pm

agreed he has been awful in these first 4 games.

Keep in mind that Jae was pretty bad before last night too.

And Book has over 40% of the TOs for the entire team, and shooting 30% from 3.

Paul is shooting 25% from 3.

No way all of these averages stay this way as the season progresses.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by JeremyG » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:56 pm

Guess which team is the #1 seed in the Western Conference? https://www.nba.com/standings

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:06 pm

The question is is Carter's 4.9pts from last year worth $3.9m a year?

I didn't realise he's in just his third season so Jones sees something (shooting % / attitude / potential) and with the cap at $109m, taking up just 3.6% of it isn't too big a deal I guess, plus it's a three year deal only.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Split T » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Carter’s deal is fine. It’s cheap. He showed in the bubble that he can bring value. I don’t think we’d be having a problem with him if he hit a few more 3’s. He’s 1/13, if he was 5/13 he’d be fine. Just don’t play him at the 1, and replace him with Galloway if he’s not hitting the 3. He’s also a culture guy that will make sure anyone who takes minutes from him is gonna earn it.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by bajanguy008 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:22 pm

Jevon.... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Mori Chu » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:45 pm

One thing that jumped out at me from this game's box score is that Zion had only 2 rebounds. A guy that big and strong ought to have more. He is a special player, but watching him last night my takeaway is that he still has a lot to learn. He kind of just bulls his way to the basket. It works for him because he's built like a Mack truck, but there is so much more to the game than that. He is very young and will learn, but I want to see more from him.

I keep coming back to how happy I am with our swingmen. Bridges, Johnson, Crowder, are all very solid 3-and-D men with similar yet different strengths. I feel like we have the personnel to stop a lot of the league's best swings like Lebron, Paul George, Kawhi. We have more trouble against elite PF/Cs like Zion, A.Davis, Giannis, but having great 3-and-D men is a huge leg up. If you have so many guys who can hit open shots, it makes things way easier and better for our ballhandlers and distributors, namely Paul, Booker, Payne, etc. We can win games even without a huge Booker scoring binge.

There's a lot of consternation about Ayton's play in these threads. I have worries, too. But I keep coming back to one thing: He. Is. 22. Years. Old. Yes, there are 22-year-olds in the league doing amazing things. But my point is that he is still really young and really early in his NBA career. Anybody making claims like, "DA will never ____," or, "DA is just not a ___ type of player," I think it's totally premature to say anything so definitive. He is going to be a much different player 4-5 years from now than he is today. Big men sometimes take a while. I still think he can be one of the best big men in the league in a few years if he wants to be. His second year was extremely weird, with the 25-game suspension and then finishing the season in a bubble. Now he's on a team with some major changes that didn't have a full training camp. He said himself that he feels like this is his 2nd year. I just want to give the guy some time. Would I give him a max contract today? No. But a lot of the posts on here seem happy to ignore what he does well and harp on what he isn't doing well. The guy can effortlessly get 12-13 rebounds most every game. He's one of our better defensive players (though I acknowledge that he fouls too much and sometimes gets lost on some plays). He is an extremely accurate shooter who usually shoots a high FG%. He's already showing a nice 2-man game with CP3. There's a lot to like and a lot of reason to give him time to improve.

Overall the team looks great already, which is really encouraging since you can imagine them being even better once they've had a month or so to get used to each other. The team chemistry also seems really good between a lot of our core young guys. I'm really enjoying this season so far.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Indy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:09 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:45 pm

...
But I keep coming back to one thing: He. Is. 22. Years. Old. Yes, there are 22-year-olds in the league doing amazing things. But my point is that he is still really young and really early in his NBA career. Anybody making claims like, "DA will never ____," or, "DA is just not a ___ type of player," I think it's totally premature to say anything so definitive. He is going to be a much different player 4-5 years from now than he is today. Big men sometimes take a while.
I agree with you that he will likely be a better player when he is 27 than 22. But the same can be said for Alex Len. (Yes, I know he is already a better player than Alex ever will be.)

Can you think of any examples of a top pick 5 completely changing the way they play after 3 years in the league, regardless of age? I have certainly seen guys too aggressive and too eager to make plays and too inexperienced to make the right reads and barrel guys over picking up stupid fouls.

But I can't think of examples of high lotto picks that were passive and avoided contact and didn't attack defenses, only to pick up those traits later.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Wally_West » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm

Ayton is going to be fine. Fans overreact too much. It’s just 4 games. Players have rough patches, it’s nothing new. People were acting like the sky was falling after the 0-4 preseason. This team as unit has only been playing together for like 3 weeks. I know there’s many returning players but there’s new dynamics this time around. This is going to take time.

There’s going to be growing pains with this team and Ayton but there’s plenty of time to figure that out.

Is he generational big man? I don’t know but probably not. Doesn’t mean he wont be a good player still, one that has multiple All-Star appearances.

Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
When it’s all said and done, he’s most likely going to play good to great defense and average close to 20 and 12 and that’s fine. Ayton isn’t our alpha, that’s CP and Book.

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