Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by specialsauce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:33 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:45 pm
One thing that jumped out at me from this game's box score is that Zion had only 2 rebounds. A guy that big and strong ought to have more. He is a special player, but watching him last night my takeaway is that he still has a lot to learn. He kind of just bulls his way to the basket. It works for him because he's built like a Mack truck, but there is so much more to the game than that. He is very young and will learn, but I want to see more from him.

I keep coming back to how happy I am with our swingmen. Bridges, Johnson, Crowder, are all very solid 3-and-D men with similar yet different strengths. I feel like we have the personnel to stop a lot of the league's best swings like Lebron, Paul George, Kawhi. We have more trouble against elite PF/Cs like Zion, A.Davis, Giannis, but having great 3-and-D men is a huge leg up. If you have so many guys who can hit open shots, it makes things way easier and better for our ballhandlers and distributors, namely Paul, Booker, Payne, etc. We can win games even without a huge Booker scoring binge.

There's a lot of consternation about Ayton's play in these threads. I have worries, too. But I keep coming back to one thing: He. Is. 22. Years. Old. Yes, there are 22-year-olds in the league doing amazing things. But my point is that he is still really young and really early in his NBA career. Anybody making claims like, "DA will never ____," or, "DA is just not a ___ type of player," I think it's totally premature to say anything so definitive. He is going to be a much different player 4-5 years from now than he is today. Big men sometimes take a while. I still think he can be one of the best big men in the league in a few years if he wants to be. His second year was extremely weird, with the 25-game suspension and then finishing the season in a bubble. Now he's on a team with some major changes that didn't have a full training camp. He said himself that he feels like this is his 2nd year. I just want to give the guy some time. Would I give him a max contract today? No. But a lot of the posts on here seem happy to ignore what he does well and harp on what he isn't doing well. The guy can effortlessly get 12-13 rebounds most every game. He's one of our better defensive players (though I acknowledge that he fouls too much and sometimes gets lost on some plays). He is an extremely accurate shooter who usually shoots a high FG%. He's already showing a nice 2-man game with CP3. There's a lot to like and a lot of reason to give him time to improve.

Overall the team looks great already, which is really encouraging since you can imagine them being even better once they've had a month or so to get used to each other. The team chemistry also seems really good between a lot of our core young guys. I'm really enjoying this season so far.
You could literally exchange Aytons name with Alex Len, Dragan Bender and Marquese Chriss and find the exact same excuse from everyone again. Attitudes don’t change.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:05 pm

Isn’t the point though that it doesn’t matter if he becomes aggressive or not?

If he’s a career 19 and 12 guy that is a fourth option on offense with good shooting %, defence and offensive rebounding, so long as the price is right then that’s fine - we can leave the crunch time scoring to the Booker’s and Paul’s of the team?

Unless you’re just comparing him to Donic or Young I can understand the disappointment but to me I’m looking at the team as a whole and Ayton definitely has a role to play in it .. for the right price.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by O_Gardino » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:31 pm

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Isn’t the point though that it doesn’t matter if he becomes aggressive or not?

If he’s a career 19 and 12 guy that is a fourth option on offense with good shooting %, defence and offensive rebounding, so long as the price is right then that’s fine - we can leave the crunch time scoring to the Booker’s and Paul’s of the team?

Unless you’re just comparing him to Donic or Young I can understand the disappointment but to me I’m looking at the team as a whole and Ayton definitely has a role to play in it .. for the right price.
That's exactly how I see it.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Superbone » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm

Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Indy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:56 pm

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Isn’t the point though that it doesn’t matter if he becomes aggressive or not?

If he’s a career 19 and 12 guy that is a fourth option on offense with good shooting %, defence and offensive rebounding, so long as the price is right then that’s fine - we can leave the crunch time scoring to the Booker’s and Paul’s of the team?

Unless you’re just comparing him to Donic or Young I can understand the disappointment but to me I’m looking at the team as a whole and Ayton definitely has a role to play in it .. for the right price.
Yes. Completely agree. I am not saying he has to be aggressive to be a good player. But he will never be a great player without it. He can continue to develop on this path and be good enough on defense to make one of the all-defensive teams, and be good enough overall to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a very good team. But you don't pay a guy like that the max. And I guarantee someone will pay him the max, either this summer or next.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Indy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm

Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by specialsauce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:03 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:56 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Isn’t the point though that it doesn’t matter if he becomes aggressive or not?

If he’s a career 19 and 12 guy that is a fourth option on offense with good shooting %, defence and offensive rebounding, so long as the price is right then that’s fine - we can leave the crunch time scoring to the Booker’s and Paul’s of the team?

Unless you’re just comparing him to Donic or Young I can understand the disappointment but to me I’m looking at the team as a whole and Ayton definitely has a role to play in it .. for the right price.
Yes. Completely agree. I am not saying he has to be aggressive to be a good player. But he will never be a great player without it. He can continue to develop on this path and be good enough on defense to make one of the all-defensive teams, and be good enough overall to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a very good team. But you don't pay a guy like that the max. And I guarantee someone will pay him the max, either this summer or next.
I have no doubt DA is going to take whatever the highest offer is when it comes to his next deal, unless the Suns offer him the max. I can see him finding himself in Detroit or another wasteland on a fat contract with a decade of Ls ahead.

If he shocks me and agrees to reup at a reasonable deal for his talent level ($15M/year) I would be suddenly delighted and much easier on him.

I think Mikal and Cam are the more valuable pieces to our core for the future, I would make their deals a priority and play tough with DA or trade him if you can’t agree.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:15 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.
It might be his body shape - not all big men are created equal with muscles and fat being in different places, shoulder width affecting centres of gravity, length and / or the distribution of weight in the upper body versus lower body likewise, so it just might not be that physically easy for him to be aggressive when attacking the rim.

Don't want to be making too many excuses for the guy - and the open lane hesitation yesterday obviously doesn't fall into this category (that, to me, looked more like he's over thinking things) - but it is something to think about.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Wally_West » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:17 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.
Not going to argue that but he was 14th in FG% last year and 10th in his rookie year. So while that those sequences are maddening, he still is efficient down there. At the end of the day, my point here is that he is a good player and that he doesn’t need to be some sort of generational star for us to be great this year.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:18 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:03 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:56 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Isn’t the point though that it doesn’t matter if he becomes aggressive or not?

If he’s a career 19 and 12 guy that is a fourth option on offense with good shooting %, defence and offensive rebounding, so long as the price is right then that’s fine - we can leave the crunch time scoring to the Booker’s and Paul’s of the team?

Unless you’re just comparing him to Donic or Young I can understand the disappointment but to me I’m looking at the team as a whole and Ayton definitely has a role to play in it .. for the right price.
Yes. Completely agree. I am not saying he has to be aggressive to be a good player. But he will never be a great player without it. He can continue to develop on this path and be good enough on defense to make one of the all-defensive teams, and be good enough overall to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a very good team. But you don't pay a guy like that the max. And I guarantee someone will pay him the max, either this summer or next.
I have no doubt DA is going to take whatever the highest offer is when it comes to his next deal, unless the Suns offer him the max. I can see him finding himself in Detroit or another wasteland on a fat contract with a decade of Ls ahead.

If he shocks me and agrees to reup at a reasonable deal for his talent level ($15M/year) I would be suddenly delighted and much easier on him.

I think Mikal and Cam are the more valuable pieces to our core for the future, I would make their deals a priority and play tough with DA or trade him if you can’t agree.
I'd have no hesitation trading him if he asks for too much.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by specialsauce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:18 pm

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:15 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.
It might be his body shape - not all big men are created equal with muscles and fat being in different places, shoulder width affecting centres of gravity, length and / or the distribution of weight in the upper body versus lower body likewise, so it just might not be that physically easy for him to be aggressive when attacking the rim.

Don't want to be making too many excuses for the guy - and the open lane hesitation yesterday obviously doesn't fall into this category (that, to me, looked more like he's over thinking things) - but it is something to think about.
What kind of silliness is this! We come up with new explanations for his Acute testiculopenia every day. As WAlly says, he’s just got to get himself together and dad-dick someone

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm

Lol factual physics and physiology .. some body shapes are more suited to some things than others.

Approximate case in point my left vs right leg - I can sprint fast in a straight line but when I run on an athletics track anti-clockwise I lose a lot of speed.

Why?

I have a slightly rotated pelvis that reduces power through the right leg vs the left leg.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:18 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:15 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm
Is he going to be super aggressive player like Amare? No. That’s not him. That’s one I’m confident in saying but 2 points is 2 points. Whether it’s a dunk or a lay up, it’s still 2 points.
And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.
It might be his body shape - not all big men are created equal with muscles and fat being in different places, shoulder width affecting centres of gravity, length and / or the distribution of weight in the upper body versus lower body likewise, so it just might not be that physically easy for him to be aggressive when attacking the rim.

Don't want to be making too many excuses for the guy - and the open lane hesitation yesterday obviously doesn't fall into this category (that, to me, looked more like he's over thinking things) - but it is something to think about.
What kind of silliness is this! We come up with new explanations for his Acute testiculopenia every day. As WAlly says, he’s just got to get himself together and dad-dick someone
Maybe his chakras are misaligned?
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Wally_West » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:25 pm

Ayton is gonna dad dick Sarver’s wallet. Ayton is going to get paid and it’s going to be a number y’all really won’t like. Might as well start accepting that. At the end of the day, it’s not my fucking money. I don’t give a shit.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 pm

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm
Lol factual physics and physiology .. some body shapes are more suited to some things than others.

Approximate case in point my left vs right leg - I can sprint fast in a straight line but when I run on an athletics track anti-clockwise I lose a lot of speed.

Why?

I have a slightly rotated pelvis that reduces power through the right leg vs the left leg.
Aggression has nothing to do with physiology.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:29 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:18 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:15 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:43 pm

And 0 points is still 0 points when he lays it up and it rolls off the rim when he easily could have dunked for two sure point and maybe even the foul.
Right. Avoiding contact to try and lay it up lessens your chance of making it and you chance of getting fouled. Your points per shot goes down.
It might be his body shape - not all big men are created equal with muscles and fat being in different places, shoulder width affecting centres of gravity, length and / or the distribution of weight in the upper body versus lower body likewise, so it just might not be that physically easy for him to be aggressive when attacking the rim.

Don't want to be making too many excuses for the guy - and the open lane hesitation yesterday obviously doesn't fall into this category (that, to me, looked more like he's over thinking things) - but it is something to think about.
What kind of silliness is this! We come up with new explanations for his Acute testiculopenia every day. As WAlly says, he’s just got to get himself together and dad-dick someone
Maybe his chakras are misaligned?
Beat me to it! haha

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:35 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm
Lol factual physics and physiology .. some body shapes are more suited to some things than others.

Approximate case in point my left vs right leg - I can sprint fast in a straight line but when I run on an athletics track anti-clockwise I lose a lot of speed.

Why?

I have a slightly rotated pelvis that reduces power through the right leg vs the left leg.
Aggression has nothing to do with physiology.
I think I disagree (but open to discussion here) - sir Charles was able to rebound aggressively and bully guys down low because he had a large ass that lowered his centre of gravity making him stronger on the block and its size allowed him to create space.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Superbone » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:38 pm

It's all in the mind, dude.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by 3rdside » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:40 pm

Superbone wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:38 pm
It's all in the mind, dude.
I'm not saying it's all to do with physical shape, just that it's a contributor.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (2-1) @ Suns (2-1), Tues 12/29/20

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:48 pm

3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:35 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm
Lol factual physics and physiology .. some body shapes are more suited to some things than others.

Approximate case in point my left vs right leg - I can sprint fast in a straight line but when I run on an athletics track anti-clockwise I lose a lot of speed.

Why?

I have a slightly rotated pelvis that reduces power through the right leg vs the left leg.
Aggression has nothing to do with physiology.
I think I disagree (but open to discussion here) - sir Charles was able to rebound aggressively and bully guys down low because he had a large ass that lowered his centre of gravity making him stronger on the block and its size allowed him to create space.
But he still had the will power to out work his opponents and use his fat ass to get those rebounds.

If I'm following your logic correctly, you're saying Ayton might have some physiological disadvantage that prevents him from acting on his desired actions. For example, I can't grab an object on a shelf above my head because I have an impaired shoulder, yet without the impairment I'd be able to grab the object without any issue.

If this were the case, I think we'd have seen him injure himself playing basketball at some point because he'd still occasionally push his body past a physiological threshold, consciously or not.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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