Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Superbone » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:22 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:05 pm
I wish we'd taken Doncic and probably always will, but I am rooting for our guy.
Is anybody here not rooting for our guy?
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season!

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by rhylek » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:33 pm

Some had hopes of him becoming the next Olajuwon. Would you be happy with the next Mutombo instead?

As much as I wanted us to draft Doncic, he has his own flaws and I think Ayton profile may be harder to find.

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ShelC
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by ShelC » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:58 pm

Ayton or the coaches or the players or all of them need to figure out what Ayton is and maximize it. It feels like they're telling him to just focus on the defense and let the offense come, which it will. Maybe that's the way to take the pressure off of him and get the best out of him.

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:59 pm

I think the best thing about Ayton is he's actually receptive and coachable.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:01 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:05 pm
If Ayton is an elite defensive / rebounding big man who can also get 18-20 points within the flow of the game, without the offense being built around him, then that is a very valuable and special player. It'd be great if Ayton were ferocious and attacked the rim and got 30 ppg, but then he'd want a lot more shots and would probably cause Book's scoring to dip and our great swings to get fewer 3s and other such downstream effects. The player Ayton is trying to become would be really valuable to this particular team.

I am a big believer in Ayton at this point. I think he is already good, and I think he is going to keep getting better for years to come. I acknowledge his flaws and agree that you can't build a team around him as the #1 offensive option, sure. But I think he gets too much crap here and is underappreciated among Suns fans online. I wish we'd taken Doncic and probably always will, but I am rooting for our guy.
You and Bone are also extreme optimists. I have never seen either of you ever give up on a player, even when they eventually leave you still think they can develop if they just went to the Spurs (Bender or Len).

It’s the truth!

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:03 pm

AmareIsGod wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:59 pm
I think the best thing about Ayton is he's actually receptive and coachable.
Is it coachable if they tell you to just go up with it and you play just as scared the next game? Just because he doesn’t yell and bark at them doesn’t mean he’s coachable. Although, if he were the type to bark back I suspect he wouldn’t be scared on the court either

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Superbone » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:32 pm

I was looking at Ayton in his postgame interview yesterday and he looked skinny to me. He looked bigger to me in college. Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure he was on steroids and now he’s not. (I don’t mean that that it’s unfortunate he’s not still on them.) He does need to spend a lot of time in the weight room though, eat the right foods, and continue to put on healthy pounds.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season!

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm

I think we can leave Doncic out of this. Even in a world where Doncic doesn't exist, it sitll doesn't change the expectations Ayton had when he was labeled a generational talent and was very high on himself as the clear #1 choice.

I think the expectation for Ayton to be a great player is fine and has nothing to do with Doncic. All this rationalizing to make his inability to capitalize on his talent is sad.

No, you don't have to wallow in misery yearning for Doncic. But we don't need to cover up the reality that the player the Suns organization lauded and the player Ayton himself has aid he would be, that player is nowhere to be found. Does that mean that Ayton can't be useful? Of course not. But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.

Regardless, the early returns of the Coach Paul era have been as good as can be expected. So absolutely, there is cause for optimism and joy in Planet Orange.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:29 pm

As good as can be under the circumstances INF? Sounds like cautious optimism. That's major praise, coming from you.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Cap » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:03 pm

I like AIG’s sig. “I’m not a regular big man, I can switch from the center to the guards” is one boast he actually lives up to.

Cam Payne: “I’m not a regular point guard, I can switch from the guards to the center.”

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Superbone » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:32 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm
But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.
What is that going to do for anybody? Feel free to wallow in it but I won't be joining you.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season!

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:37 pm

Superbone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:32 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm
But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.
What is that going to do for anybody? Feel free to wallow in it but I won't be joining you.
Right? I sure am disappointed in his dominant defense this season. What a disappointment.

Meanwhile, if he was scoring 30 points per game, grabbing 12 rebounds and shooting at a ridiculous clip while drinking all over people but a turnstile on defense, would we be harping on the massive disappointment he is? I guess he needs to be not just an all world defender this season but he better be dunking all over and scoring like a monster, wins and losses be damned.

Mind you, his outstanding defense is only 6 games into this season, so it hasn't been sustained. It's just more a question of, does he need to be a top 3 defender at his position AND top offensive player at his position as a 22 year old, since he was the #1 pick? What constitutes not being a disappointment?
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Split T » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:54 pm

Ayton disappoints relative to our expectations. The expectations were about as high as can be for him. Is it unfair? Sure it is a little. But I’d also argue that Ayton asked for these expectations. Maybe he didn’t ask to be held in comparison to Luka is whole career, but he’s certainly talked himself up as a generational player. He disappoints because he’s not a generational player and doesn’t seem to be on that path. Doesn’t mean he’s not valuable. His defense has been a pleasant surprise after Arizona. He’s legitimately a very good defensive player. He just has so much offensive potential and he seems to be going backwards on that end of the court. That’s why we’re dissapointed, we know what he can be, and that’s not what we see on the court.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:55 pm

Superbone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:32 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm
But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.
What is that going to do for anybody? Feel free to wallow in it but I won't be joining you.
I'm not wallowing. I'm just not going to bend over backwards trying to spin some narrative that makes me feel better about Ayton. He hasn't been great. He hasn't lived up to the expectations he himself talked his way into. That is reality. And I can accept it. It's not end of the world, and it doesn't rob my Suns fandom of all of its joy. Doesn't mean he can't get better. It's just where he is at this point in year 3 of his career.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Indy » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:18 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:55 pm
Superbone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:32 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm
But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.
What is that going to do for anybody? Feel free to wallow in it but I won't be joining you.
I'm not wallowing. I'm just not going to bend over backwards trying to spin some narrative that makes me feel better about Ayton. He hasn't been great. He hasn't lived up to the expectations he himself talked his way into. That is reality. And I can accept it. It's not end of the world, and it doesn't rob my Suns fandom of all of its joy. Doesn't mean he can't get better. It's just where he is at this point in year 3 of his career.
well said

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:28 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:55 pm
Superbone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:32 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:46 pm
But objectively speaking, there is plenty of cause here to be disappointed.
What is that going to do for anybody? Feel free to wallow in it but I won't be joining you.
I'm not wallowing. I'm just not going to bend over backwards trying to spin some narrative that makes me feel better about Ayton. He hasn't been great. He hasn't lived up to the expectations he himself talked his way into. That is reality. And I can accept it. It's not end of the world, and it doesn't rob my Suns fandom of all of its joy. Doesn't mean he can't get better. It's just where he is at this point in year 3 of his career.
Fair. I can understand this take.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by virtual9mm » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:36 pm

I think it is also fair to be tired of listening to the incessant harping on his perceived shortcomings. You don't need to buy into a narrative. The simple reality is that we have no idea what he will end up being, although I am of the school of thought he will figure things out with enough reps. Certainly not an intuitive player like a Kobe or Nash but maybe practice will make perfect. Let's just enjoy the ride.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Aztec Sunsfan » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:37 pm

virtual9mm wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:36 pm
I think it is also fair to be tired of listening to the incessant harping on his perceived shortcomings. You don't need to buy into a narrative. The simple reality is that we have no idea what he will end up being, although I am of the school of thought he will figure things out with enough reps. Certainly not an intuitive player like a Kobe or Nash but maybe practice will make perfect. Let's just enjoy the ride.
THANK YOU

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:41 pm

Informer, I seem to recall seeing a few posts calling CP3 "Coach Paul" and alluding to him being a cause for concern with this team, either from a leadership perspective or elsewhere. What exactly does this mean and what is the issue with CP3 you have? I haven't followed his career closely other than knowing he's fiercely competitive and demanding of his teammates, which has rubbed a few stars with big egos on his teams in the past wrong.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Game Day: Suns (4-1) @ Nuggets (1-3), Friday 1/1/21

Post by Indy » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:53 pm

virtual9mm wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:36 pm
I think it is also fair to be tired of listening to the incessant harping on his perceived shortcomings. You don't need to buy into a narrative. The simple reality is that we have no idea what he will end up being, although I am of the school of thought he will figure things out with enough reps. Certainly not an intuitive player like a Kobe or Nash but maybe practice will make perfect. Let's just enjoy the ride.
Yep, you can be tired of reading it. Everyone is their own person. But they are not 'perceived shortcomings." They are just shortcomings. He is not DOMINAYTON. He can still end up being a very good player. And maybe some day he will live up to what he sold himself as, and what the Suns (and us fans) bought into. But it certainly hasn't happened in his first 2 seasons, or 10% into this one.

And you can enjoy the ride and enjoy being a fan of the team while still thinking Ayton isn't living up to what he says he is. They are not mutually exclusive.

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