Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
User avatar
Indy
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am

Superbone wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 am
Just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean his second contract should be affected by that. It should be based on his play. There's no freaking way he's getting the max based on that criteria.
if we don't trade him we are going to give him a max contract.

User avatar
djy2j
Posts: 1820
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:10 am

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by djy2j » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:02 am

specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
I think the argument Turner vs DA might be closer than many here think. Turner averages 12 and 6 but with FOUR blocks and 1.6 steals. He should be a defensive player of the year candidate. His short comings are rebounds but he plays next to Sabonis who grabs rebounds. He hasn't figured out all his offensive abilities yet. Part of that I blame Nate McMillan in the past. I think DA has a much higher ceiling but I don't think he'll ever figure it out. I think DA's rebounding would also go down playing next to Sabonis.

So i think you give the nod to Turner for defense and the slight nod to Ayton on offense. Just depends on what you value in today's version of an NBA Center to who's better.
The artist formerly known as Y2JJEDIPIMP on .net

"Just like Neal Armstrong I went to space and now I'm back..."

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am

Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 am
Just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean his second contract should be affected by that. It should be based on his play. There's no freaking way he's getting the max based on that criteria.
if we don't trade him we are going to give him a max contract.
What about Jones track record makes you think he would overpay for DA?

James has largely avoided albatross contracts.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:58 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 am
Just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean his second contract should be affected by that. It should be based on his play. There's no freaking way he's getting the max based on that criteria.
if we don't trade him we are going to give him a max contract.
What about Jones track record makes you think he would overpay for DA?

James has largely avoided albatross contracts.
Jones doesn't have much of a track record of anything besides reaching on draft picks and going after high floor--regardless of ceiling height--guys. He hasn't given out any contracts to our draft picks because he hasn't been here long enough.

My comments are not about Jones, but about how the league works. Count up the number of #1 picks that didn't get a max/near max contract off their rookie deals?

I actually think Jones will trade him this next off season.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Split T » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:59 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 am
Just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean his second contract should be affected by that. It should be based on his play. There's no freaking way he's getting the max based on that criteria.
if we don't trade him we are going to give him a max contract.
What about Jones track record makes you think he would overpay for DA?

James has largely avoided albatross contracts.
*cough* Chris Paul *cough*

In reality, it might not be up to JJ. All it takes is one team to offer a max and we either have to match or let him walk for nothing.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

Drewsprocket
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:44 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Drewsprocket » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:01 am

djy2j wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:02 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
I think the argument Turner vs DA might be closer than many here think. Turner averages 12 and 6 but with FOUR blocks and 1.6 steals. He should be a defensive player of the year candidate. His short comings are rebounds but he plays next to Sabonis who grabs rebounds. He hasn't figured out all his offensive abilities yet. Part of that I blame Nate McMillan in the past. I think DA has a much higher ceiling but I don't think he'll ever figure it out. I think DA's rebounding would also go down playing next to Sabonis.

So i think you give the nod to Turner for defense and the slight nod to Ayton on offense. Just depends on what you value in today's version of an NBA Center to who's better.
Who trades for DA or offer him a max? I think JJ will have to force DA into getting an offer sheet and force the team into a deal. Centers are gettable but I think we will manage to sign Ayton to a reasonable deal. We’d have the same record with Ricshaun Holmes. Anyway, it’ll be fine. Book, Cam Johnson and Bridges will have a lot of success together.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am

specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am

Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:07 am

Split T wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:59 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:53 am
Just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean his second contract should be affected by that. It should be based on his play. There's no freaking way he's getting the max based on that criteria.
if we don't trade him we are going to give him a max contract.
What about Jones track record makes you think he would overpay for DA?

James has largely avoided albatross contracts.
*cough* Chris Paul *cough*

In reality, it might not be up to JJ. All it takes is one team to offer a max and we either have to match or let him walk for nothing.
Or not even a max. They could offer him 22M on average but front load it and see if we are willing to give him 25M for his first year (or something like that). Letting your guy go into FA (even restricted) is saying that you don't think he is worth locking up and announcing to the league he is available without offering any picks/players to trade for as long as you want to pay him.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.
I think you may be underestimating how much even average players make in today's NBA. The 15th highest payroll in the league this year is 130M. And 123 guys are making at least 10M this year.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 am

Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.
I think you may be underestimating how much even average players make in today's NBA. The 15th highest payroll in the league this year is 130M. And 123 guys are making at least 10M this year.
We’ve already had this discussion.

The elite teams in this league have 3 guys making near max deals, and then their role players are all on reasonable team-friendly contracts. The losing teams that fizzle in the playoffs hamstring themselves by overpaying role players $15M plus. It’s a recipe for disaster.

This is a star oriented league. You need to pay your stars handsomely and the rest of the pieces are easily replaceable. Role players WAR are generally NOT worth the extra cash. Paying Turner $18m per year will not give you that much better results as a team as paying a guy like Serge Ibaka the MLE and maximizing the value of your cap space.

Just because Charlotte gave Hayward that ridiculous contract doesn’t mean now all of a sudden it’s a winning deal to give Cam Johnson the max.
Last edited by specialsauce on Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Split T » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:23 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.
If he’s not worth 18 million, you should be able to find guys, not on rookie deals, that make less than him and are clearly better. My guess is there is just a couple and that’s all because they are underpaid. Like Christian Wood for example. Crazy that he just got paid and is already underpaid...especially when so many got overpaid this offseason.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Split T » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:41 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Y’all do some good drugs ? Turner is not worth $18M and he is not as good as DA. NEXT
There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.
I think you may be underestimating how much even average players make in today's NBA. The 15th highest payroll in the league this year is 130M. And 123 guys are making at least 10M this year.
We’ve already had this discussion.

The elite teams in this league have 3 guys making near max deals, and then their role players are all on reasonable team-friendly contracts. The losing teams that fizzle in the playoffs hamstring themselves by overpaying role players $15M plus. It’s a recipe for disaster.

This is a star oriented league. You need to pay your stars handsomely and the rest of the pieces are easily replaceable. Role players WAR are generally NOT worth the extra cash. Paying Turner $18m per year will not give you that much better results as a team as paying a guy like Serge Ibaka the MLE and maximizing the value of your cap space.

Just because Charlotte gave Hayward that ridiculous contract doesn’t mean now all of a sudden it’s a winning deal to give Cam Johnson the max.
This is a better point. Turner is essentially a 3rd guy. I’d argue he’s paid like a 3rd guy. Probably a higher end 3rd guy. But his deal is reasonable enough it still allows you to fill the roster around him. Especially if you have guys like Cam and Bridges on rookie deals.

My main point is I’d rather have Turner at 18 million than Ayton at 30 million. Paying non max guys the max is what really hurts. It’s why a team like the Warriors can be so far into the luxury tax with a mediocre team. They’re paying Wiggins 30 million a year. It’s why Cleveland has huge salary numbers and aren’t good(Drummond and Love)

The fear with Turner would be someone like Gary Harris. He hurts that Denver team because they’re paying 20ish million a year for a guy the Lakers have at the minimum(Wesley Matthews) But Turner isn’t Harris. He’s good, he brings a lot of value. There is an argument for paying a guy like Ibaka half the salary, but they aren’t the same players. Turner is better. You’re also only getting Ibaka at that salary if you’re one of a few teams.

So yes, there are better options than Turner at 18 million, but you can’t just always go find them easily. Remember when we thought we might have a shot at a PF for the MLE? Grant, Bertans, Gallo all got like 18-20 million. Wood was the steal at 13 million, but those guys are the exception.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:48 am

Split T wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:41 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am


There are 83 guys in the NBA making over 15M this year. Turner is certainly within the top 100 players in the NBA.
Just because there are doesn’t mean those are team-friendly deals. Lots of horrendous contracts out there that will hamstring teams. You’re just flat out wrong on this Indy. Just accept it! Lol.
I think you may be underestimating how much even average players make in today's NBA. The 15th highest payroll in the league this year is 130M. And 123 guys are making at least 10M this year.
We’ve already had this discussion.

The elite teams in this league have 3 guys making near max deals, and then their role players are all on reasonable team-friendly contracts. The losing teams that fizzle in the playoffs hamstring themselves by overpaying role players $15M plus. It’s a recipe for disaster.

This is a star oriented league. You need to pay your stars handsomely and the rest of the pieces are easily replaceable. Role players WAR are generally NOT worth the extra cash. Paying Turner $18m per year will not give you that much better results as a team as paying a guy like Serge Ibaka the MLE and maximizing the value of your cap space.

Just because Charlotte gave Hayward that ridiculous contract doesn’t mean now all of a sudden it’s a winning deal to give Cam Johnson the max.
This is a better point. Turner is essentially a 3rd guy. I’d argue he’s paid like a 3rd guy. Probably a higher end 3rd guy. But his deal is reasonable enough it still allows you to fill the roster around him. Especially if you have guys like Cam and Bridges on rookie deals.

My main point is I’d rather have Turner at 18 million than Ayton at 30 million. Paying non max guys the max is what really hurts. It’s why a team like the Warriors can be so far into the luxury tax with a mediocre team. They’re paying Wiggins 30 million a year. It’s why Cleveland has huge salary numbers and aren’t good(Drummond and Love)

The fear with Turner would be someone like Gary Harris. He hurts that Denver team because they’re paying 20ish million a year for a guy the Lakers have at the minimum(Wesley Matthews) But Turner isn’t Harris. He’s good, he brings a lot of value. There is an argument for paying a guy like Ibaka half the salary, but they aren’t the same players. Turner is better. You’re also only getting Ibaka at that salary if you’re one of a few teams.

So yes, there are better options than Turner at 18 million, but you can’t just always go find them easily. Remember when we thought we might have a shot at a PF for the MLE? Grant, Bertans, Gallo all got like 18-20 million. Wood was the steal at 13 million, but those guys are the exception.
Turner is not a third guy. I completely disagree. He’s a role player. To me he’s completely replaceable at half the contract. I would feel the same about DA at anything beyond 15M.

When the Dubs were at their best, it was Curry Durant and Klay and then everyone else made marbles.

The Lakers had LeBron and AD and everyone else was marbles.

You don’t pay $18M for your fourth or fifth best player. That was my argument for getting rid of Oubre. Paying someone $15M to come off the bench is a horrendous decision.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:50 am

Tristan Thompson is another example of a poor man’s Turner who makes a similar impact at half the contract. These guys are not that important

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 4734
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:52 am

Perfect example of atrocious overpays for role players- replacing Amare with overpays in Hedo, Childress and Warrick. You saved cap space from Amare to waste it on overpaid role players that have little impact over players who make half their salaries

User avatar
BKinSJC
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:36 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by BKinSJC » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:25 pm

Seems to me like the agent for every big man who comes up for a new contract is going to point to the Gobert deal and say something like, "hey, my guy's at least half as good as Rudy, we're starting negotiations at $20 million..." or something like that. On the other hand, Wood and Harrell just went for $13.5 and MLE money, so there are counterexamples that teams can point at. Big man market might be kind of a mess for a few years.

I'm not in favor of overpaying Ayton. He's important to the team right now, simply because he's the only player on the roster who is a consistent volume rebounder and he's theoretically the best interior defender and rim protector, based just on size and physical capabilities, although he still has major problems with consistent effort and feel for the game. What he brings right now is possible to replace for far less than the kind of extension that a #1 pick typically is going to command. I hope that the front office is looking hard at the reality of what he is, and while it's fine to hope for a leap that would make him worth that big second contract that Ayton has said is his goal, there need to be contingency plans in place.

User avatar
ShelC
Posts: 7156
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 am

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by ShelC » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:32 pm

What would Ayton be making at the max?

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Split T » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:35 pm

The Warriors aren’t as good of example as you think they are. They paid Bogut 13 million when they won the title, David Lee made 15 million. They benefitted hugely from a way under market deal that Curry was on. He was making like 11 or 12 million a year. Draymond was never making max money. All this, plus the huge cap jump in 2016 allowed them to sign Durant.

They are a 1 in a million scenario where they had a MVP on a cheap contract and had a 20 million dollar cap increase hit right before they had to re-sign Curry.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (6-3) @ Pacers (6-2), Sat 1/9/21

Post by Split T » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:37 pm

ShelC wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:32 pm
What would Ayton be making at the max?
25% of the salary cap. Projections now have that starting at 28.75 million in year 1
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

Post Reply