Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by AmareIsGod » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:47 pm

ShadowHawke wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:39 pm
Maybe someone should pay more attention when Ayton says he wants to pay his respects to Rasheed Wallace before the game.
???

Context? Details?.. What am I missing here?
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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SunsRIt
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by SunsRIt » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:52 pm

We talk about how good bubble Booker and Bridges were, Ayton was just the opposite. He sucked in the bubble. What happened to him during the shutdown?

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Mori Chu » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:02 am

Won't Ayton be an RFA? So you can either max him if the deal he gets is reasonable, or let him go if not.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Ring_Wanted » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:27 am

Split T wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
virtual9mm wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:42 pm
Split T wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:42 pm
Shabazz wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:11 pm
Split T wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:42 am
I didn’t watch last night, but sounds like another dud for DA...I’ll try to stop mentioning it, but I’d really just trade him now. It’s clearly selling short, but give me Nance, McGee and a protected 1st and I’ll take it. At this point we’ll be closing games in the playoffs with Saric anyways.
I don't disagree with the premise, but that would be an awful, awful return for Ayton and a fire-able offense for Jones.

I just want Ayton to get back to where he was last year. I'd be happy with that. Is that too much to ask? Is he broken?
I’m worried he is. We used to at least get flashes every few games or so. He’s been pretty meh since that 4 game stretch when we thought he figured it out. I just know I’m going to be really frustrated with him come playoff time and just wanting us to play Saric. I hope he makes me eat my words.

And ya, it’s a poor return. I just don’t really see what we can do with him. If he lays a dud in the playoffs, what do we do with him? He’ll be up for an extension and I think he’s clearly headed for less money than Bridges at this point...I’m sure we could move him in the offseason, but how much would we get? We have a short window right now with CP3 and we need to make each year count.

I’m just frustrated with his play and would rather not have to worry about it anymore...of course that’s not the best reason to trade someone...good thing I’m not the gm
Then sign him for 15 million a year and call him a bargain.
Well I’d love to...I have serious doubts about getting him that cheap though...he clearly won’t sign that extension this summer. He’d push it out to restricted free agency and then we’re at the mercy of what other teams will pay...and I guarantee someone will give him more than 15 million a year.
That's ok, because he is clearly worth more than those 15M per even if he doesn't improve one iota; this is not 2010 anymore. I hate the hands, the low motor, the lack of awareness, etc., just like the rest of us, but I am at a point where I just appreciate Ayton for what he is instead of getting frustrated by what he is not or what he won't become. I really learned my lesson from Amare. Ayton is indeed frustrating but is still a very productive two-way player at a position of scarcity in today's NBA. Sad that he probably will never become a star, but you can count with the fingers of one hand how many big men can do what he actually does. 25M per is perfectly fine (20M per would be ideal and less is a terrific bargain). Now, a max contract (let alone an eventual supermax) is another story. But if I were the GM, I'd put those 20-25M on the table for an extension asap to keep him from hitting RFA, where I am sure someone will offer the absolute max (it would be strategically catastrophic to lose him for nothing or for your typical small s+t return).

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:01 am

DA is not worth $20M annually. Huge waste of cap space IMO

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 am

Mori Chu wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:02 am
Won't Ayton be an RFA? So you can either max him if the deal he gets is reasonable, or let him go if not.
max him if the deal is reasonable?

And yeah, you are either losing him for nothing, or matching a deal that is more than you wanted to pay him. You are basically bidding against yourself, because you are asking yourself how much more are you willing to pay so you don't lose him for nothing.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 am

I think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.

Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59 am

I think your best bet is for Mikal to accept something like 4/80 and to offer Ayton the same deal. One thing about Ayton is he doesn’t actually seem to see himself as above other players. He’s even been a little star struck in the past. He just might be cool with taking the same deal as Mikal.

One thing I know is we’ve gotta lock Mikal up quick...his price will only go up the next year.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 pm

$40 million a year committed to Ayton and Bridges is a lot of money for little production. OG Anunoby's extension screwed the market up, so yeah, you'll probably have to commit $20 mil per year on Bridges. But he is a guy that is just as likely to give you 8 points in a given night as he is 16 points.

You can't fill your roster with high priced role players that give you inconsistent production. You're locking yourself into long-term mediocrity. And maybe Jones/Sarver doesn't mind that. They might win a championship this year or next year and then spend the next 2-4 seasons battling for the 6-8 seeds. And that might be just fine for them.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by BigLewy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:07 pm

Ayton, Carter, Jaylen Smith and a first for KAT? Would that even be enough at this point? And then add in whatever salary filler is necessary.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:32 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 pm
$40 million a year committed to Ayton and Bridges is a lot of money for little production. OG Anunoby's extension screwed the market up, so yeah, you'll probably have to commit $20 mil per year on Bridges. But he is a guy that is just as likely to give you 8 points in a given night as he is 16 points.

You can't fill your roster with high priced role players that give you inconsistent production. You're locking yourself into long-term mediocrity. And maybe Jones/Sarver doesn't mind that. They might win a championship this year or next year and then spend the next 2-4 seasons battling for the 6-8 seeds. And that might be just fine for them.
Which is why I’m in favor of trading Ayton. Though I’d rather keep him at 20 million a year than lose him for nothing. Mostly because that’s still a tradable asset.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:34 pm

BigLewy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:07 pm
Ayton, Carter, Jaylen Smith and a first for KAT? Would that even be enough at this point? And then add in whatever salary filler is necessary.
Would need to add 2 1sts and a couple pick swaps. That’s the going rate for a guy like KAT now
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Nodack » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:48 pm

Indy wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
Nodack wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:17 pm
I don’t see it that way. He has his weaknesses. He has his nights where he isn’t so great. He seems to be kind of a slow learner and has questionable hands. He keeps the ball low instead of high where no guards can steal it. He seems to avoid dunking the ball. It can be frustrating to watch this perfect human specimen of a center’s not perform as we expect. Kanter had his way with Ayton on the boards. Ayton is #8 in boards. Kanter is #3. Perhaps a teaching moment for Ayton.

He has his nights where he kind of kicks ass and kind of dominates too. I can see where they have worked on and gotten better at the pick and roll with him this year. He overall stats are pretty impressive. Ayton was picked #1 over Doncic. Unless he’s the most dominant big man to ever put on a uniform he will be always be a disappointment to lot of Suns fans. Trade him now because he sucks? I don’t see it that way. Monty has been rewarding the best players that night with minutes in crunch time and Ayton doesn’t always get to play those minutes. Watching Dario dominate the paint in the fourth quarter is another teaching moment for Ayton. I am pulling for the guy even though he frustrates me. I am not for pushing a trade. I don’t think he is broken. He may never be the greatest center the NBA has ever seen but, so what? You guys would really take Kaminsky over Ayton as your center?
So do you give him a max (or near max) contract? Because if you don't, someone else will. And then he will be gone and the Suns will get nothing for him.
I don’t think he has earned a max contract yet. Can we even afford three max contracts? Best case scenario seems to be him not being a max player and we get him for a reasonable amount. My main point is that we talk about him as if he was a total crappy player that we need to dump as soon as possible because he sucks so bad. We should dump him like the 400 centers that came before him that never measured up to our high standards. Is there even a center in Suns history that did measure up to our high standards? I don’t think so. I don’t know if Ayton is going to ever be a max player or not. I just don’t think he has earned the amount of disrespect he gets around here.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Superbone » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pm

It's because he was the number one pick in the Doncic/Young draft. There's always going to be higher expectations than your run of the mill center. If we had drafted him, even number 5, our expectations would be a lot different.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:51 pm

His weaknesses are also all mental things. It’s easier to accept someone’s weaknesses if they are physical.

I think the coaching staff needs to sit down with him and figure out what we want him to be and what he wants to be. I think we have an idea of that defensively. He’s a pretty good rim protector who has flashed some ability to stay with guards on the perimeter(though lately he’s struggled).

Offensively he’s a mess. He has good touch down low and has flashed some shooting ability, but the shot isn’t great. Does he want to be a dominating presence down low(think Joel Embiid without the 3pt shot?) If so, he needs to learn to not just play through contact, but seek it out. Embiid is so strong to the hoop, he knows he’s getting fouled almost all the time. Ayton avoids contact and gets thrown off by the slightest contact.

Does he want to be more of a stretch 5(think Vucevic or Towns) if so, he needs to get a lot better shooting and needs to learn/be willing to dribble. I think he’s much further away from this. He hesitates to shoot jumpers outside of 15 feet and even when no one guards him he doesn’t dribble towards the hoop.

Does he want to be a pick n roll big(Gobert, Capela)? If so, he needs to learn to roll hard every time. He needs to learn to be on the lookout for the pass every time. And he needs to stop dropping the ball so much. He too often doesn’t roll..when he does roll, he often isn’t even looking for a pass, and sometimes when he is looking, he fumbles the ball away. This is the most perplexing part of Ayton, being a solid pnr big would seem like the easiest path, but he’s pretty bad at it. One thing he does do well is clean up on the glass after his man has to help. Though he needs to learn to not bring the ball down and to always go up strong after an o-board.


Basically right now, Ayton combines the finesse of a stretch 5, with the game of a low post big.. One of those needs to flip, or he needs to just figure out how to play pick and roll.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:03 pm

I think it is a waste of time for everyone involved to try to make Ayton a pick and roll player. It can work occasionally as an alley oop, but other than that, it isn't an optimal way to get Ayton offense.

Ayton future above mediocrity is as a post player. It's just that simple.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pm

And I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.

Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Mori Chu » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:15 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pm
And I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.

Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.
I don't agree with your comparison of Ayton to guys like Kanter. I think Ayton is a lot better, especially defensively, than those other guys. I wouldnt max him, certainly, but I think you aren't giving him his due.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:38 pm

You can point to things that he does better, but if you are a team that has one of those other guys, you aren't going to give up anything significant to "upgrade" to Ayton.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:14 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 pm
$40 million a year committed to Ayton and Bridges is a lot of money for little production. OG Anunoby's extension screwed the market up, so yeah, you'll probably have to commit $20 mil per year on Bridges. But he is a guy that is just as likely to give you 8 points in a given night as he is 16 points.

You can't fill your roster with high priced role players that give you inconsistent production. You're locking yourself into long-term mediocrity. And maybe Jones/Sarver doesn't mind that. They might win a championship this year or next year and then spend the next 2-4 seasons battling for the 6-8 seeds. And that might be just fine for them.
Ding ding ding ding.

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