Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 5210
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:16 pm

Nodack wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:48 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
Nodack wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:17 pm
I don’t see it that way. He has his weaknesses. He has his nights where he isn’t so great. He seems to be kind of a slow learner and has questionable hands. He keeps the ball low instead of high where no guards can steal it. He seems to avoid dunking the ball. It can be frustrating to watch this perfect human specimen of a center’s not perform as we expect. Kanter had his way with Ayton on the boards. Ayton is #8 in boards. Kanter is #3. Perhaps a teaching moment for Ayton.

He has his nights where he kind of kicks ass and kind of dominates too. I can see where they have worked on and gotten better at the pick and roll with him this year. He overall stats are pretty impressive. Ayton was picked #1 over Doncic. Unless he’s the most dominant big man to ever put on a uniform he will be always be a disappointment to lot of Suns fans. Trade him now because he sucks? I don’t see it that way. Monty has been rewarding the best players that night with minutes in crunch time and Ayton doesn’t always get to play those minutes. Watching Dario dominate the paint in the fourth quarter is another teaching moment for Ayton. I am pulling for the guy even though he frustrates me. I am not for pushing a trade. I don’t think he is broken. He may never be the greatest center the NBA has ever seen but, so what? You guys would really take Kaminsky over Ayton as your center?
So do you give him a max (or near max) contract? Because if you don't, someone else will. And then he will be gone and the Suns will get nothing for him.
I don’t think he has earned a max contract yet. Can we even afford three max contracts? Best case scenario seems to be him not being a max player and we get him for a reasonable amount. My main point is that we talk about him as if he was a total crappy player that we need to dump as soon as possible because he sucks so bad. We should dump him like the 400 centers that came before him that never measured up to our high standards. Is there even a center in Suns history that did measure up to our high standards? I don’t think so. I don’t know if Ayton is going to ever be a max player or not. I just don’t think he has earned the amount of disrespect he gets around here.
Deserved criticism.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 5210
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pm

Indy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 am
I think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.

Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
Paying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.

DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
Last edited by specialsauce on Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ring_Wanted
Posts: 5010
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Ring_Wanted » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:21 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pm
And I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.

Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.
That's a surprisingly superficial analysis. None of those big men are capable of switching on defense the way Ayton can (and most can't even defend at all). That's what make most of them a liability for long stretches of the game, unlike Ayton.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 13333
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:36 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pm
Indy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 am
I think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.

Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
Paying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.

DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
Do you think he is in the top 75 players or so in the NBA?

User avatar
INFORMER
Posts: 6551
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:19 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:50 pm

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:21 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pm
And I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.

Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.
That's a surprisingly superficial analysis. None of those big men are capable of switching on defense the way Ayton can (and most can't even defend at all). That's what make most of them a liability for long stretches of the game, unlike Ayton.
And likewise the Suns are better with Saric at the 5 for stretches of the game. So again, it is about net result.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 5210
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by specialsauce » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm

Indy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:36 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pm
Indy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 am
I think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.

Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
Paying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.

DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
Do you think he is in the top 75 players or so in the NBA?
I would have to count that out but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I don’t think his value at $20M above a replacement at $12M is significant enough to warrant that contract.

I’d be much happier rolling with Dario + another big at $10-12M annually, and spending that money elsewhere than giving it to a player whose team is better with him off the court.

For example, I would HAPPILY take Jayson Tatum at the max to pair with Booker, and take a value player at the 5 who is slightly less talented than DA at half the contract.

User avatar
INFORMER
Posts: 6551
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:19 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:51 pm

djy2j wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:00 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:05 pm
I don’t know if it’s just talk but according to Jones, we’re staying pat. I guess we’ll see.
I mean I hope not. There’s an empty roster spot that I think has to be filled eventually per rule. Have some minor assets, this years pick I think, I wouldn’t be sad if they moved Jaylen Smith for something important.
I could see Jones making a play for Jerami Grant.

Online
User avatar
Split T
Posts: 12331
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:11 pm

How did I get in the wrong game day thread 🤦🏻
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

User avatar
INFORMER
Posts: 6551
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:19 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:22 pm

Split T wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:11 pm
How did I get in the wrong game day thread 🤦🏻
Fixed it for you. ;)

Online
User avatar
Split T
Posts: 12331
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Split T » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:23 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:22 pm
Split T wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:11 pm
How did I get in the wrong game day thread 🤦🏻
Fixed it for you. ;)
Haha, appreciate it!
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 20699
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: Escondido, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Superbone » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Split T wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:23 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:22 pm
Split T wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:11 pm
How did I get in the wrong game day thread 🤦🏻
Fixed it for you. ;)
Haha, appreciate it!
I see you made your way out of this one and into the right one so that’s good.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 13333
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:59 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 pm
$40 million a year committed to Ayton and Bridges is a lot of money for little production. OG Anunoby's extension screwed the market up, so yeah, you'll probably have to commit $20 mil per year on Bridges. But he is a guy that is just as likely to give you 8 points in a given night as he is 16 points.
He is getting much more consistent.

He has nine games <=8 points. He has thirteen games >=16.

Still not where he needs to be to justify two first round picks, but he is getting closer.


Breakdown

Code: Select all

16%     Points>=20: 6 (w/one  34 point game)

22%  15<=Points<20: 8

32%  10<=Points<15: 12

30%.     Points<10: 11

User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 12604
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Mori Chu » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:48 pm

If you can lock up the Bridges/Ayton combo for $40m/year combined, I think that's a good deal. I'd do it. I realize that's not how NBA contracts work, but still.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 13333
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:12 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:48 pm
If you can lock up the Bridges/Ayton combo for $40m/year combined, I think that's a good deal. I'd do it. I realize that's not how NBA contracts work, but still.
If you do, that probably has to be done this summer. If you wait until they are both RFAs the year after, and basically tell them they are not worth a 2nd contract before that, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

And if you do it this summer, that means you are walking into next year with only 9 guys under contract, and a payroll of nearly 140M.

User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 4758
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Shabazz » Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:44 pm

I’m totally fine not giving Ayton any extension this summer. We’re under no obligation to do that and it’ll hopefully light a fire under him.

User avatar
Charlie Smithy!
Posts: 919
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Charlie Smithy! » Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:46 pm

Shabazz wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:44 pm
I’m totally fine not giving Ayton any extension this summer. We’re under no obligation to do that and it’ll hopefully light a fire under him.
If that doesn't, guarantee the hemorrhoids will.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 13333
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:21 pm

Shabazz wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:44 pm
I’m totally fine not giving Ayton any extension this summer. We’re under no obligation to do that and it’ll hopefully light a fire under him.
OK, so let's say it does light a fire under him and he plays like we all know he can. And he gets a contract offer you don't want to match. Then what?

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:35 pm

I love Saric as much as the next guy, but do we really think he's a +23 net rating against starting lineups? Would he be able to show Ayton how it's done in the post against even Kanter?

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 13333
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:49 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:35 pm
I love Saric as much as the next guy, but do we really think he's a +23 net rating against starting lineups? Would he be able to show Ayton how it's done in the post against even Kanter?
He is a very good back up. He is a below average starter. I like how we are using him.

User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 12604
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21

Post by Mori Chu » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:55 pm

Indy wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:49 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:35 pm
I love Saric as much as the next guy, but do we really think he's a +23 net rating against starting lineups? Would he be able to show Ayton how it's done in the post against even Kanter?
He is a very good back up. He is a below average starter. I like how we are using him.
I agree with this. He's doing exceptionally well in his current role. I don't think he would fare as well in starters minutes, against starter opponents.

Post Reply