Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Shabazz » Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:05 pm

I actually was looking at both Vuc and Val’s 3rd seasons. They were pretty far behind Ayton when comparing second seasons.

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:22 pm

Shabazz wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:05 pm
I actually was looking at both Vuc and Val’s 3rd seasons. They were pretty far behind Ayton when comparing second seasons.
I honestly didn't watch much of either back then. They clearly weren't as impactful on the stat sheet as Ayton. But would you say they often played scared?

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by phatmike » Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:33 pm

His overall effectiveness when he actually does get attempts around the rim is what makes the fumbles/bobbles so infuriating! It's like the lowest hanging fruit possible - catch the ball deep, and he has a really good chance at scoring. If he bobbles it, you lose a very likely two points. Plus he is always in a bad position after trying to recover the ball to actually get back on defense. Our defensive anchor is then ineffective - then by time he does get back, the other team likely scored or has gotten a shot up. He is in no position to rebound, etc. It's just a cycle that impacts several possessions, not just the one where he bobbled.

For what it's worth, I'm not angry they picked him or the position they picked him at. I want to like him a lot. I do like him a lot sometimes.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:12 pm

$20m/year isn't even that much in today's NBA. The cap this year is $109m with a $132.6m luxury tax threshold. You could pay each of your starters $20m and still have enough left to fill out a bench without going into the tax. That alone doesn't mean Ayton should or shouldn't get the $20m/year, but I'm just saying that that isn't a gigantic contract for an NBA starter. Frankly I think $20m is around the low point of what we could conceivably get him to sign for at this point. If he would take that, I'd very happily sign him to a multi-year $20m/year contract right now. Would I max him out? No. If that's what he wants, I would let him walk instead. Or I'd let him go hunting for an RFA contract and then decide to match based on its amount and details.

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:16 pm

There’s zero reason to give him $20M.

It’s like buying a 2003 Kia Rio and saying “20k isn’t a lot for a car these days, I’m just going to pay 20k for this.”

Huh??? Pay the value and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:20 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:16 pm
There’s zero reason to give him $20M.

It’s like buying a 2003 Kia Rio and saying “20k isn’t a lot for a car these days, I’m just going to pay 20k for this.”

Huh??? Pay the value and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.
He seems more like a 2013 Nissan Xterra to me.

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by wpmiller42 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 pm

I'm willing to give Ayton some more time, only because he's a big and they tend to take more time to develop in the NBA. But he is incredibly frustrating because when he's on, he's exactly what this team needs and I feel like we have a shot at the Finals. When he's off (and he's off WAY too often), he's such a drag on the team, and I wonder if we'll be able to hold on to home court in the first round.

I would honestly try not starting him. Maybe he's the type that would benefit from seeing how the game starts, go in early in the first period and hopefully get some easy baskets against a second stringer to get some momentum, and then hopefully he's set the rest of the game. It's so gimmicky, but there's got to be something that gets his head right.

At this point, I'm just crossing my fingers that the switch flips and he just "gets it" all of a sudden.

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:39 pm

wpmiller42 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 pm
At this point, I'm just crossing my fingers that the switch flips and he just "gets it" all of a sudden.
OK, this last part really is a copy/paste for about 90% of our draft picks over 6-10 since... forever. :lol:

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:55 pm

Indy wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:20 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:16 pm
There’s zero reason to give him $20M.

It’s like buying a 2003 Kia Rio and saying “20k isn’t a lot for a car these days, I’m just going to pay 20k for this.”

Huh??? Pay the value and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.
He seems more like a 2013 Nissan Xterra to me.
So lasted for 3 more years before being deemed a disappointment and discontinued ?

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Split T » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:12 pm

Here’s where I stand in order of preference:

1. Trade Ayton this season for a win now piece.
2. Trade Ayton this off season for a better system fit.
3. Sign Ayton to a value extension(70 Mil or less over 4)
4. Sign Ayton to a tradable extension(75-80 over 4)
5. Trade Ayton at next years deadline(no extension)
6. Sign and trade Ayton in restricted FA

Then the unacceptable outcomes for me:

• Let Ayton walk for nothing
• Match a max or near max contract
• Give Ayton a bad extension(90+ over 4 years)
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Shabazz » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:17 pm

I'm only in favor of an Ayton trade if the return is a home run - basically a win now move that also fits the "timeline" (think KAT). I know Chris Paul give us a limited window, but I think fans on this board are putting unnecessary pressure on the need for an immediate decision on a max extension. I don't think James Jones is rushing to max Ayton this summer.

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Split T » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:24 pm

Shabazz wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:17 pm
I'm only in favor of an Ayton trade if the return is a home run - basically a win now move that also fits the "timeline" (think KAT). I know Chris Paul give us a limited window, but I think fans on this board are putting unnecessary pressure on the need for an immediate decision on a max extension. I don't think James Jones is rushing to max Ayton this summer.
Ya I don’t think he’s going to max him at all...I just have reached a point where I don’t think Ayton is a long term fit at all. He’s going to be moved at some point...I’d rather that happen sooner rather than later. And preferably don’t screw up his trade value by giving him a bad extension this off season.

I think the most likely outcome is we trade him this offseason to a team that will give him an extension. I can live with that. Hopefully he doesn’t tank his value this postseason.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by specialsauce » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:30 pm

Split T wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:12 pm
Here’s where I stand in order of preference:

1. Trade Ayton this season for a win now piece.
2. Trade Ayton this off season for a better system fit.
3. Sign Ayton to a value extension(70 Mil or less over 4)
4. Sign Ayton to a tradable extension(75-80 over 4)
5. Trade Ayton at next years deadline(no extension)
6. Sign and trade Ayton in restricted FA

Then the unacceptable outcomes for me:

• Let Ayton walk for nothing
• Match a max or near max contract
• Give Ayton a bad extension(90+ over 4 years)
I would agree with this. I only want DA back at this point if the deal is a steal for the team (think Saric’s value relative to his compensation)

I don’t want any sizeable amount of cap space or our hopes for the future tied to a player we can only count on to give a shit half the time

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:55 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:55 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:20 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:16 pm
There’s zero reason to give him $20M.

It’s like buying a 2003 Kia Rio and saying “20k isn’t a lot for a car these days, I’m just going to pay 20k for this.”

Huh??? Pay the value and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.
He seems more like a 2013 Nissan Xterra to me.
So lasted for 3 more years before being deemed a disappointment and discontinued ?
Yeah. And of all the people that I knew that drove Xterras, they would be Ayton fans.

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wpmiller42
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by wpmiller42 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:10 am

Indy wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:39 pm
wpmiller42 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 pm
At this point, I'm just crossing my fingers that the switch flips and he just "gets it" all of a sudden.
OK, this last part really is a copy/paste for about 90% of our draft picks over 6-10 since... forever. :lol:
That's so, so, so, very sadly true. But Ayton's the first that I've thought that if he gets it, he'll be a hall of famer. The others (like Chriss, Jackson, Bender, etc...) I just felt their ceilings were solid role players. I think Ayton's ceiling is potentially one of the best front court players to ever play. Who knows if he'll get there though.

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by jonh » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:27 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:30 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:12 pm
Here’s where I stand in order of preference:

1. Trade Ayton this season for a win now piece.
2. Trade Ayton this off season for a better system fit.
3. Sign Ayton to a value extension(70 Mil or less over 4)
4. Sign Ayton to a tradable extension(75-80 over 4)
5. Trade Ayton at next years deadline(no extension)
6. Sign and trade Ayton in restricted FA

Then the unacceptable outcomes for me:

• Let Ayton walk for nothing
• Match a max or near max contract
• Give Ayton a bad extension(90+ over 4 years)
I would agree with this. I only want DA back at this point if the deal is a steal for the team (think Saric’s value relative to his compensation)

I don’t want any sizeable amount of cap space or our hopes for the future tied to a player we can only count on to give a shit half the time
That may be where you stand in order of preference, but if I was to rank them in order of probability, I would put option 9 (Give Ayton a bad extension (90+ over 4 years), as the most likely outcome.

Sarver drafted Ayton. Ayton went to Arizona. The team will have no high draft picks the next few years to get high upside players. The team is selling the ceiling and potential of the team, and he has more potential upside than almost anyone else on the roster.
“I’m done with not making the playoffs. I’m serious. This is probably the last year I’m ever not making the playoffs.” Devin Booker-- April, 2017

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:33 pm

jonh wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:27 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:30 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:12 pm
Here’s where I stand in order of preference:

1. Trade Ayton this season for a win now piece.
2. Trade Ayton this off season for a better system fit.
3. Sign Ayton to a value extension(70 Mil or less over 4)
4. Sign Ayton to a tradable extension(75-80 over 4)
5. Trade Ayton at next years deadline(no extension)
6. Sign and trade Ayton in restricted FA

Then the unacceptable outcomes for me:

• Let Ayton walk for nothing
• Match a max or near max contract
• Give Ayton a bad extension(90+ over 4 years)
I would agree with this. I only want DA back at this point if the deal is a steal for the team (think Saric’s value relative to his compensation)

I don’t want any sizeable amount of cap space or our hopes for the future tied to a player we can only count on to give a shit half the time
That may be where you stand in order of preference, but if I was to rank them in order of probability, I would put option 9 (Give Ayton a bad extension (90+ over 4 years), as the most likely outcome.

Sarver drafted Ayton. Ayton went to Arizona. The team will have no high draft picks the next few years to get high upside players. The team is selling the ceiling and potential of the team, and he has more potential upside than almost anyone else on the roster.
Even though that makes us a tax paying team? Or are you thinking he cites tax costs and lets Bridges walk because he is already paying too much next year?

Or are you saying he let Ayton know he will get his extension, but has to play out the last year of his contract until Paul comes off the books?

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by jonh » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:39 pm

I don't know how he makes the numbers work, just that he is invested in not having Ayton be labeled his mistake.
“I’m done with not making the playoffs. I’m serious. This is probably the last year I’m ever not making the playoffs.” Devin Booker-- April, 2017

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Indy » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:57 pm

jonh wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:39 pm
I don't know how he makes the numbers work, just that he is invested in not having Ayton be labeled his mistake.
Probably true. Maybe Ayton will fire his agency and hire Klutch. Then Sarver will short circuit not knowing what to do.

By the way, go check out DA's agent's website. It is a treat. You'd think they hired it out for $100 to a middle school kid.

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Re: Game Day: Pacers (16-20) @ Suns (25-11), Sat 3/13/21

Post by Split T » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:16 pm

That’s why you trade Ayton for a different piece...then he’s not necessarily a failure...just not a fit.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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