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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:07 pm
by Indy
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:57 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:48 pm
"reliably" is a subjective term. We all wish he had better hands, and had a motor like Jevon Carter, and had the agression of Amare. He doesn't, and likely never will.
That doesn't mean we would be better off starting Jae and Dario and
trading him for scraps.
The objective measures suggest otherwise. We are statistically a better team when Dario is in. Again, the Suns have their worst net rating as a team when DA is on the court compared to any other rotation player.
Your bolded statement is what is subjective.
Your underlined statement is hyperbole and twisting the words.
Larry Nance or Jarrett Allen are not scraps. John Collins is not scraps. I’m not talking about trading him for cash considerations. Id rather get someone who provides rather more value for less money or is more reliable and fits the mentality of the rest of the team better.
Being on the court doesn't equal starting.
And of course Nance and Allen are not scraps. But that trade suggestion is ridiculous. There is nothing for the Cavs to gain there.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:08 pm
by BAMF
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:04 pm
BAMF wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:00 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:58 pm
BAMF wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:54 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:48 pm
"reliably" is a subjective term. We all wish he had better hands, and had a motor like Jevon Carter, and had the agression of Amare. He doesn't, and likely never will. That doesn't mean we would be better off starting Jae and Dario and trading him for scraps.
Maybe pursue Andre Drummand if he gets bought out. Doesn't fit perfectly with our style but young 27 (probably will demand some coin though not as much as he is making now) and a good stop gap for the mean time.
Problem with that is Drummond tries to do things he can’t. That’s one thing Ayton has going for him, he doesn’t try things he can’t do. He’s even essentially eliminated a lot of his mid range jumpers.
Not sure if I'm on board with this. I like people who try to take their game to another level even when they can't do it. It shows spirit and desire but yes it can hurt you but not as much as not trying at all. Just my opinion.
Sure, I agree, but Drummond is one extreme and Ayton is the other. Need to find somewhere in the middle. I know historically he’s been better, but how is a 7’0 athletic freak shooting 47% from the field? Doesn’t make sense and he’s never been an efficient offensive player.
I'm not sure we need his offence btw I don't think its bad just can't spread anything out. We are not really needing Aytons at this point. We have tons of offence. As I said I think he would be a good stop gap.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:29 pm
by INFORMER
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:41 am
Thing is, I don’t even want him as my starting center at this point. So are you willing to pay $15M to your backup center? I would rather trade him and get a big with a higher motor and start Dario.
That is the problem with Dario, though; he is very limited in terms of how he can be used. Starting Dario is just going to diminish his effectiveness.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:32 pm
by INFORMER
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:08 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:48 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:41 am
Thing is, I don’t even want him as my starting center at this point. So are you willing to pay $15M to your backup center? I would rather trade him and get a big with a higher motor and start Dario.
Love Dario, but the Dario-Crowder frontcourt is first round fodder.
I think that has more to do with Jae.
It's equal; starting Crowder at the 4 is pretty awful. Ayton actually makes it more manageable, as does Crowder's occasional performances when he hits a bunch of 3s.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:39 pm
by specialsauce
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:07 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:57 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:48 pm
"reliably" is a subjective term. We all wish he had better hands, and had a motor like Jevon Carter, and had the agression of Amare. He doesn't, and likely never will.
That doesn't mean we would be better off starting Jae and Dario and
trading him for scraps.
The objective measures suggest otherwise. We are statistically a better team when Dario is in. Again, the Suns have their worst net rating as a team when DA is on the court compared to any other rotation player.
Your bolded statement is what is subjective.
Your underlined statement is hyperbole and twisting the words.
Larry Nance or Jarrett Allen are not scraps. John Collins is not scraps. I’m not talking about trading him for cash considerations. Id rather get someone who provides rather more value for less money or is more reliable and fits the mentality of the rest of the team better.
Being on the court doesn't equal starting.
And of course Nance and Allen are not scraps. But that trade suggestion is ridiculous. There is nothing for the Cavs to gain there.
Your thought is that teams will be willing to pay DA 20-25M annually right? I don’t think anyone sees Allen that way. Is it that much of a leap to suggest that DA is seen as an upgrade to Allen with regards to the potential development and future of a young franchise with an up-and-coming back court?
If not, then you’re essentially implying that DA will not command that sort of money on the FA market. I see JA getting offers around $15M.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:47 pm
by Indy
You don't trade your starting PF and starting Center for a starting Center and 3rd string SG that is the size of a small PG.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
by specialsauce
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:47 pm
You don't trade your starting PF and starting Center for a starting Center and 3rd string SG that is the size of a small PG.
I said Allen OR Nance duh. And you do if you think the starting center you’re getting in return can be a cornerstone. Your logic is flawed. So you wouldn’t trade DA and Crowder for Giannis because you’re giving up both your starting center and PF for just a starting PF.
And you dodged my question. So is DA valued at 20-25M around the league or is he valued at a level that Cleveland wouldn’t trade Allen for him? Because I don’t think it can be both even though some seem to have conflicting opinions depending on the angle.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:35 pm
by specialsauce
Another trade Id float:
Suns get
Prichard
Smart
TT
Celtics get
DA
Carter
Moore
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:53 pm
by BAMF
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:35 pm
Another trade Id float:
Suns get
Prichard
Smart
TT
Celtics get
DA
Carter
Moore
Yuck!!! That is awful Celtics would be getting the best out of this deal. TT is overrated Smart it the only one I like but never for what you are offering. I'll take my chances with DA
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:09 pm
by Split T
I like Smart and think he could actually be really good for this team. Thompson would be your default starting 5. He’s fine and would essentially split the minutes with Saric. He doesn’t defend the rim, but he rebounds and he’s a better switch defender than Ayton.
Smart is one of the top 2-3 perimeter defenders in the league. Him and Bridges would be awesome locking down the perimeter.
Imagine a Smart/Bridges/Cam/Crowder/Thompson lineup. Probably wouldn’t score, but no one else would either.
I’d do this trade in a heartbeat, but I don’t think Boston would.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:30 pm
by Mori Chu
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:41 am
Thing is, I don’t even want him as my starting center at this point. So are you willing to pay $15M to your backup center? I would rather trade him and get a big with a higher motor and start Dario.
Which starting NBA centers do you think are better than Ayton?
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:51 pm
by specialsauce
BAMF wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:53 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:35 pm
Another trade Id float:
Suns get
Prichard
Smart
TT
Celtics get
DA
Carter
Moore
I'll take my chances with DA
Yuck!!!!! Lol
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:52 pm
by specialsauce
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:30 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:41 am
Thing is, I don’t even want him as my starting center at this point. So are you willing to pay $15M to your backup center? I would rather trade him and get a big with a higher motor and start Dario.
Which starting NBA centers do you think are better than Ayton?
I can answer that, and my answer is about half the centers in the league. My thing is, I’d rather have a different center even if their overall talent is less than DA. I think with this team we need a player that has a high motor and is dependable to show up each night, even if the ceiling is lower.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:33 pm
by Indy
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:47 pm
You don't trade your starting PF and starting Center for a starting Center and 3rd string SG that is the size of a small PG.
I said Allen OR Nance duh. And you do if you think the starting center you’re getting in return can be a cornerstone. Your logic is flawed.
I guess I missed that, duh. I though you said Ayton and Carter for Allen and Nance.
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
So you wouldn’t trade DA and Crowder for Giannis because you’re giving up both your starting center and PF for just a starting PF.
Really??? There isn't a huge upgrade in the trade you proposed, for either team. So...
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
And you dodged my question. So is DA valued at 20-25M around the league or is he valued at a level that Cleveland wouldn’t trade Allen for him? Because I don’t think it can be both even though some seem to have conflicting opinions depending on the angle.
Didn't mean to dodge your question. I do think that if DA enters free agency, someone (likely several) would be willing to offer him 25M/year. Every year it seems there are a couple teams that have their hearts set on a big name FA that is sending signals he might leave his team. So they structure their cap to have the room, and pray he will choose them. Then he doesn't, and they are left holding a bag. They make a quick decision and offer more than a guy should get the next tier.
This happens all the time. The obvious Suns example of this is with Tom freaking Gugliotta when McDyess bounced.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:01 pm
by BAMF
Because the Rockets are rebuilding how about DA + Jalen (or Cam J) for Wood. The Rockets are a Mess and this gives the a heads start on a rebuild? Our staff is familiar with Wood as well from his league days. Just throwing it the air.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:31 pm
by specialsauce
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:33 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:47 pm
You don't trade your starting PF and starting Center for a starting Center and 3rd string SG that is the size of a small PG.
I said Allen OR Nance duh. And you do if you think the starting center you’re getting in return can be a cornerstone. Your logic is flawed.
I guess I missed that, duh. I though you said Ayton and Carter for Allen and Nance.
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
So you wouldn’t trade DA and Crowder for Giannis because you’re giving up both your starting center and PF for just a starting PF.
Really??? There isn't a huge upgrade in the trade you proposed, for either team. So...
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:26 pm
And you dodged my question. So is DA valued at 20-25M around the league or is he valued at a level that Cleveland wouldn’t trade Allen for him? Because I don’t think it can be both even though some seem to have conflicting opinions depending on the angle.
Didn't mean to dodge your question. I do think that if DA enters free agency, someone (likely several) would be willing to offer him 25M/year. Every year it seems there are a couple teams that have their hearts set on a big name FA that is sending signals he might leave his team. So they structure their cap to have the room, and pray he will choose them. Then he doesn't, and they are left holding a bag. They make a quick decision and offer more than a guy should get the next tier.
This happens all the time. The obvious Suns example of this is with Tom freaking Gugliotta when McDyess bounced.
Lol. Just to clarify I wasn’t implying that you dodged it intentionally.
So if you think a team will pay DA 25, then I would assume you think a team would be willing to pay Jarrett Allen 25 as well. Yes?
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:36 pm
by specialsauce
BAMF wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:01 pm
Because the Rockets are rebuilding how about DA + Jalen (or Cam J) for Wood. The Rockets are a Mess and this gives the a heads start on a rebuild? Our staff is familiar with Wood as well from his league days. Just throwing it the air.
No way I’m giving up that much for Wood. Cam J is more than a throw in.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:41 pm
by pickle
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:31 pm
So if you think a team will pay DA 25, then I would assume you think a team would be willing to pay Jarrett Allen 25 as well. Yes?
Honestly I think that logic is a little flawed. Just because some team would be willing to pay Ayton 25 mil doesn't mean that Cleveland would also do the same. And given that their two guards are both small and offense-first players, they need a good rim protector. Ayton is actually quite a good rim protector but I'd say Allen is at least as good and probably slightly better, and I'd rather have Allen at 15 than Ayton at 25 if I were Cleveland. And Allen might also get something more than 15, to be honest.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 pm
by Oatmeal
Some of these offers are nuts. I do not like Ayton, but I believe he has more value than a role player return.
Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21
Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:46 pm
by specialsauce
pickle wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:41 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:31 pm
So if you think a team will pay DA 25, then I would assume you think a team would be willing to pay Jarrett Allen 25 as well. Yes?
Honestly I think that logic is a little flawed. Just because some team would be willing to pay Ayton 25 mil doesn't mean that Cleveland would also do the same. And given that their two guards are both small and offense-first players, they need a good rim protector. Ayton is actually quite a good rim protector but I'd say Allen is at least as good and probably slightly better, and I'd rather have Allen at 15 than Ayton at 25 if I were Cleveland. And Allen might also get something more than 15, to be honest.
I would absolutely rather have Allen at 15 than DA at 20 or 25.