Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

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pickle
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:46 pm

Oatmeal wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 pm
Some of these offers are nuts. I do not like Ayton, but I believe he has more value than a role player return.
Exactly how I feel. Tristan Thompson has been awful this year. Before the season I told a Celtics fan buddy that Tristan was a great signing. Now I feel like an idiot. Only thing he does is offensive rebounding. He's fundamentally sound and probably a good teammate and all, but it's like that Chicago game where someone looked at the Bulls fan board and they were pining for Ayton. If we actually had some of these guys on our team we'd be killing them.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by specialsauce » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:51 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:46 pm
Oatmeal wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 pm
Some of these offers are nuts. I do not like Ayton, but I believe he has more value than a role player return.
Exactly how I feel. Tristan Thompson has been awful this year. Before the season I told a Celtics fan buddy that Tristan was a great signing. Now I feel like an idiot. Only thing he does is offensive rebounding. He's fundamentally sound and probably a good teammate and all, but it's like that Chicago game where someone looked at the Bulls fan board and they were pining for Ayton. If we actually had some of these guys on our team we'd be killing them.
You are vastly underrating Marcus Smart and missing my point entirely.

I’d rather have TT at $10M than DA at $20. Spend that extra $10M elsewhere (Marcus Smart).

DA is not a difference maker, and downgrading him at this point won’t hurt us much and serves to help us elsewhere on the roster.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:54 pm

Oatmeal wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 pm
Some of these offers are nuts. I do not like Ayton, but I believe he has more value than a role player return.
Hasn’t shown any indication that he’s anything more than a role player himself though.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:57 pm

I'm a huge Marcus Smart fan, but look at the larger picture, what is our goal? Is it to maximize our chances to compete with CP3 pushing 36, or is it to get rid of Ayton at all costs? I lived in Boston for 13 years, so I pay a bit of attention to the Celtics. This team has had more downs than ups this year, and a lot of it, fairly or unfairly, is attributed to the fact that they don't have a good center rotation. They have a three center rotation with Thompson, Theis, and Time Lord, and each has serious flaws. The fact that Thompson can't consistently get 28 mpg says something about his ability to contribute to post season success for the Suns.

I love Smart. I've been a fan of his for years and think that he affects the game in a positive way despite horrendous fg% and want the Suns to get him. But he's 6'3 and while he can switch onto much bigger players, he's not someone we can throw out onto the court with CP3, Booker, Cam/Crowder and Daric and still defend opposing teams at a high level. Our rebounding in particular will be dreadful. If you didn't like the Portland/Memphis games where we couldn't keep Kanter and JV off the boards, that proposed lineup following this Boston trade would give you an aneurysm. If Smart were available, I'd move a decent amount to get him, but not Ayton, because that trade would leave a gaping hole at the 5 for us.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:03 pm

I haven’t paid that much attention to Boston, so maybe you’re right, but I also think we’re in better shape than Boston at the 5. Saric is better than Theis or Williams. We wouldn’t need Thompson to play 28 minutes.

I also think a lot of Boston’s issues are just depth in general. They lost Hayward, Smart has been hurt, Tatum missed time with Covid, and Kemba hasn’t been the same. They had just as bad of a center rotation(worse actually) last year and they almost made the finals.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:09 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:41 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:31 pm

So if you think a team will pay DA 25, then I would assume you think a team would be willing to pay Jarrett Allen 25 as well. Yes?
Honestly I think that logic is a little flawed. Just because some team would be willing to pay Ayton 25 mil doesn't mean that Cleveland would also do the same. And given that their two guards are both small and offense-first players, they need a good rim protector. Ayton is actually quite a good rim protector but I'd say Allen is at least as good and probably slightly better, and I'd rather have Allen at 15 than Ayton at 25 if I were Cleveland. And Allen might also get something more than 15, to be honest.
This. All teams value are not equal.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:13 pm

I don't doubt that as currently constituted, Smart's impact on the court is as good if not better than Ayton. However, we still need to take team makeup and future potential into consideration. Ayton is in his 3rd year and has shown improvement, and the Suns lack not only center depth but also depth at the 4, while Smart is I think 28 and probably not going to improve much, and Thompson is going to be worse for us and downgrading from Ayton to him hurts us more than Smart will help.

I love Saric, but we will need our starting center to be able to hold up for 28 mpg even if he won't on most nights.

I do agree that Boston has other issues beyond big man depth. As for last year, Theis was destroyed by Bam, and that was a large part of the reason why they spent their full MLE on Tristan. Rumor has it that Indiana offered Myles Turner and pick for Hayward, and Boston instead opted for the biggest trade exception in league history, which has been brought up a lot along with that depth issue you mentioned.

Ultimately, whatever trade we make needs to take into account the fact that CP3 has maybe 2 good years left in him, and other than this year's low first rounder, we probably won't have a lot of ways to improve this team, so I'm really hoping for internal growth out of Ayton and Bridges (and of course the other young players too), and I'm not willing to move Ayton just for a bunch of high end non-difference makers.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:18 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:13 pm
Ayton is in his 3rd year and has shown improvement...
He has?

I'd argue that he hasn't really improved much at all. The peaks we've seen from him this season weren't any better than those from his first two seasons, and he's been less consistent with hitting those peaks this year.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by The Bobster » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:21 pm

We need to hurry up and make some deals so we can get back to 19-63!!!

What we have right now seems to be working pretty well. If we can add a significant buyout player, great, but I'm not looking to move any major parts just yet.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:22 pm

There was some discussion on Ayton's lack of motor, forgot if it was this thread or another.

From the games I've watched, he seems to have a decent motor on defense. Yes there might have been a possession or two where he was defending his man on the perimeter, and didn't get in the fray for the defensive rebound -- he's not the Dennis Rodman type effort rebounder. But in general I don't think his defensive motor is a problem, and his defensive awareness has improved over the past couple of years to the point where he's definitely become an above average rim protector who isn't always getting destroyed in the pick and roll. Capela, for example, was played off the court by Golden State a couple of years ago during the playoffs, I wonder how the two of them compare in terms of defending in space, but I'd say Ayton is a solid B+/A- on that end of the court.

I do think he lacks aggression on the offensive end of the floor, but if someone didn't know basketball read this board, they'd definitely think he was in fact the modern day Olowokandi or Kwame, and I think that's a bit exaggerated.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:23 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:18 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:13 pm
Ayton is in his 3rd year and has shown improvement...
He has?

I'd argue that he hasn't really improved much at all. The peaks we've seen from him this season weren't any better than those from his first two seasons, and he's been less consistent with hitting those peaks this year.
He has shown improvement on the defensive end from year one to year two, and this year I don't think he has regressed.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm

He made a huge jump defensively from year 1 to 2, but he’s regressed this year at just about everything.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm

The Bobster wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:21 pm
We need to hurry up and make some deals so we can get back to 19-63!!!

What we have right now seems to be working pretty well. If we can add a significant buyout player, great, but I'm not looking to move any major parts just yet.
I agree with this, only caveat being that after adding Craig I guess we won't have the roster spot to be active on the buy-out market? I'd really like to get another backup 4/5 or at least a player who is a full time 4, rather than another 3/4 tweener.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by The Bobster » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:18 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:13 pm
Ayton is in his 3rd year and has shown improvement...
He has?

I'd argue that he hasn't really improved much at all. The peaks we've seen from him this season weren't any better than those from his first two seasons, and he's been less consistent with hitting those peaks this year.
His numbers per 100 possessions are pretty steady. He's shooting the ball less and fouling a little more, and his rebounding is up. Other than that, his numbers are pretty much the same.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:25 pm

Split T wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm
He made a huge jump defensively from year 1 to 2, but he’s regressed this year at just about everything.
I don't know that his defense regressed, but maybe I'm just not watching closely enough.

His offense is a problem, but I'm willing to be patient, at least more patient than some of the trades being proposed on this board. Took 25 games for CP3 and Booker to figure it out on the offensive end, and they are two of the top 15 offensive players in the league.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by BAMF » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:29 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:22 pm
I do think he lacks aggression on the offensive end of the floor, but if someone didn't know basketball read this board, they'd definitely think he was in fact the modern day Olowokandi or Kwame, and I think that's a bit exaggerated.
A lesser version of Howard IMO. Which is not bad but I think we need to strike while the match is hot but maybe I'm just testy because of Pauls age.
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:36 pm

No way I’m giving up that much for Wood. Cam J is more than a throw in.
I think Wood fits the way we play better than Ayton and I did not say Cam J first but I would not be opposed to it if we couldn't get it done with Jalen.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:35 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:25 pm
Split T wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm
He made a huge jump defensively from year 1 to 2, but he’s regressed this year at just about everything.
I don't know that his defense regressed, but maybe I'm just not watching closely enough.

His offense is a problem, but I'm willing to be patient, at least more patient than some of the trades being proposed on this board. Took 25 games for CP3 and Booker to figure it out on the offensive end, and they are two of the top 15 offensive players in the league.
Well it depends on when you’re measuring. He seemed pretty solid defensively to start the year...He’s not been good lately though. Fouling too much...getting blown by on the perimeter with ease. I’m also frustrated at his laziness in transition. I’ve noticed him just attach himself to someone other than his man and not run back to his man, which puts us in a compromised defensive state.

I should probably give him more leeway though. We have changed his responsibilities, mostly by minimizing them offensively. He seems to do better when he has specific things he’s expected to do. When he doesn’t know what to do, he does nothing. He’s the opposite problem of what Josh Jackson was in that regard, haha.

What I’m looking for tonight is energy. He should easily be able to outrun Gasol in transition. I’m gonna keep an eye on that tonight.
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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:36 pm

BAMF wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:29 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:22 pm
I do think he lacks aggression on the offensive end of the floor, but if someone didn't know basketball read this board, they'd definitely think he was in fact the modern day Olowokandi or Kwame, and I think that's a bit exaggerated.
A lesser version of Howard IMO. Which is not bad but I think we need to strike while the match is hot but maybe I'm just testy because of Pauls age.
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:36 pm

No way I’m giving up that much for Wood. Cam J is more than a throw in.
I think Wood fits the way we play better than Ayton and I did not say Cam J first but I would not be opposed to it if we couldn't get it done with Jalen.
I think Wood would be awesome here
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:10 pm

Split T wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:36 pm
BAMF wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:29 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:22 pm
I do think he lacks aggression on the offensive end of the floor, but if someone didn't know basketball read this board, they'd definitely think he was in fact the modern day Olowokandi or Kwame, and I think that's a bit exaggerated.
A lesser version of Howard IMO. Which is not bad but I think we need to strike while the match is hot but maybe I'm just testy because of Pauls age.
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:36 pm

No way I’m giving up that much for Wood. Cam J is more than a throw in.
I think Wood fits the way we play better than Ayton and I did not say Cam J first but I would not be opposed to it if we couldn't get it done with Jalen.
I think Wood would be awesome here
I advocated for Wood during the off season but we got Crowder...

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Re: Suns News: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:20 pm

pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:10 pm
Split T wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:36 pm
BAMF wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:29 pm
pickle wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:22 pm
I do think he lacks aggression on the offensive end of the floor, but if someone didn't know basketball read this board, they'd definitely think he was in fact the modern day Olowokandi or Kwame, and I think that's a bit exaggerated.
A lesser version of Howard IMO. Which is not bad but I think we need to strike while the match is hot but maybe I'm just testy because of Pauls age.
specialsauce wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:36 pm

No way I’m giving up that much for Wood. Cam J is more than a throw in.
I think Wood fits the way we play better than Ayton and I did not say Cam J first but I would not be opposed to it if we couldn't get it done with Jalen.
I think Wood would be awesome here
I advocated for Wood during the off season but we got Crowder...
Didn’t have the money for Wood after we made the CP3 trade and kept the cap hold of Saric. But before the CP3 trade he was my 2nd option after FVV.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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