Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Mori Chu » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:11 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 am
it is a weighted metric already.
I'm not saying the data is wrong; I'm saying it is misleading. Do you think this year's Pelicans team is one of the 10 most efficient offenses in NBA history?

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:12 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:39 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:36 am
This is pretty crazy
I think the stats are a bit misleading in this case. I don't think this year has 8 of the 10 best or most efficient offenses in NBA history. You'd have to factor in defense, pace, and other things. Maybe in a shallow numeric sense their efficiency rating is high, but as the tweet author says, one of the teams isn't even in the playoffs.
Teams have just figured out the whole efficiency thing. 3 pt shots galore. These are actually per 100 possession numbers, so they’ve adjusted for pace and everything. It really is just the 3 pt explosion. Relative offensive rating is actually a more interesting stat and compares a teams offensive rating to the league average.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:13 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:11 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 am
it is a weighted metric already.
I'm not saying the data is wrong; I'm saying it is misleading. Do you think this year's Pelicans team is one of the 10 most efficient offenses in NBA history?
I understand what you’re saying..it’s misleading but just because efficiency for the whole league has made a huge jump. It’s a fact that the Pelicans have one of the 10 most efficient offenses of all time.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Cap » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm

Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:19 pm

Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
At the least, they need to push back the corner 3. Widen the court and push it back. I’d be open to moving it back as well. What are we at now 23 feet 9 inches? Is 25 feet too far?
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by jonh » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
Do we need to change the game to make it harder to be less efficient? I'd rather see a high scoring-shootout game than a grind-it-out game. I'd rather the league put its resources towards problems like figuring out how to decrease the subjectivity of officiating.
“I’m done with not making the playoffs. I’m serious. This is probably the last year I’m ever not making the playoffs.” Devin Booker-- April, 2017

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:37 pm

jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:25 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
Do we need to change the game to make it harder to be less efficient? I'd rather see a high scoring-shootout game than a grind-it-out game. I'd rather the league put its resources towards problems like figuring out how to decrease the subjectivity of officiating.
Fair, but I think you can do both. I’m fine with the offense, but there is a concern that teams will get too good at 3s and there will be no reason to do anything but shoot them.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by jonh » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:37 pm
jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:25 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
Do we need to change the game to make it harder to be less efficient? I'd rather see a high scoring-shootout game than a grind-it-out game. I'd rather the league put its resources towards problems like figuring out how to decrease the subjectivity of officiating.
Fair, but I think you can do both. I’m fine with the offense, but there is a concern that teams will get too good at 3s and there will be no reason to do anything but shoot them.
For the 2020-2021 season, teams are shooting 53 2 pointers (60%) and 35 3 pointers (40%) a game. I think that is actually a fairly healthy mix of both kinds of shots, and suggest (to me, anways) that the game isn't currently being dominated by one type of shot (currently).
“I’m done with not making the playoffs. I’m serious. This is probably the last year I’m ever not making the playoffs.” Devin Booker-- April, 2017

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:08 pm

jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:37 pm
jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:25 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
Do we need to change the game to make it harder to be less efficient? I'd rather see a high scoring-shootout game than a grind-it-out game. I'd rather the league put its resources towards problems like figuring out how to decrease the subjectivity of officiating.
Fair, but I think you can do both. I’m fine with the offense, but there is a concern that teams will get too good at 3s and there will be no reason to do anything but shoot them.
For the 2020-2021 season, teams are shooting 53 2 pointers (60%) and 35 3 pointers (40%) a game. I think that is actually a fairly healthy mix of both kinds of shots, and suggest (to me, anways) that the game isn't currently being dominated by one type of shot (currently).
Ya I think the current numbers are fine, but what if it shifts to 50/50 or 40/60? Would you consider moving the line back at that point? And I’m mostly just in favor of pushing the corner 3 back. That’s the one that is becoming almost more valuable than an at-rim shot.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Cap » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:18 pm

jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:37 pm
jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:25 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 pm
Is the 3 pt explosion too much? Should the line be moved back?
Do we need to change the game to make it harder to be less efficient? I'd rather see a high scoring-shootout game than a grind-it-out game. I'd rather the league put its resources towards problems like figuring out how to decrease the subjectivity of officiating.
Fair, but I think you can do both. I’m fine with the offense, but there is a concern that teams will get too good at 3s and there will be no reason to do anything but shoot them.
For the 2020-2021 season, teams are shooting 53 2 pointers (60%) and 35 3 pointers (40%) a game. I think that is actually a fairly healthy mix of both kinds of shots, and suggest (to me, anways) that the game isn't currently being dominated by one type of shot (currently).
How does the 53 break down between paint shots and middies?

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Mori Chu » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:26 pm

jonh wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm
For the 2020-2021 season, teams are shooting 53 2 pointers (60%) and 35 3 pointers (40%) a game. I think that is actually a fairly healthy mix of both kinds of shots, and suggest (to me, anways) that the game isn't currently being dominated by one type of shot (currently).
I personally enjoyed watching basketball more when there was more offensive diversity. I like mid-range shots, post moves, layups, elbow jumpers, all kinds of various shots. Now I feel like it's all 3s and layups. I don't want 40+% of all shots to be 3s. I especially agree with folks who say that the corner 3 has gotten too easy. I don't like seeing huge centers out there practicing 3s because that's the only way they can contribute on offense. Widen the court, move it back a bit, sure; try whatever it takes to bring a bit more balance.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Mori Chu » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:43 pm


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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Indy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:52 pm

Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:13 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:11 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 am
it is a weighted metric already.
I'm not saying the data is wrong; I'm saying it is misleading. Do you think this year's Pelicans team is one of the 10 most efficient offenses in NBA history?
I understand what you’re saying..it’s misleading but just because efficiency for the whole league has made a huge jump. It’s a fact that the Pelicans have one of the 10 most efficient offenses of all time.
this

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Indy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:00 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:43 pm
Just one reason why I have been supportive of some of the things Split and Cap said. I want the court to be 10' wider (maybe longer too), and make the 3 pointer 25' and a full semi-circle so corners are not closer. It even gives a little more room on the corners between the 3 and out of bounds.

Make the paint smaller (or trapezoidal).

Go back to what used to be allowed for continuation.

Punish intentional fouls to prevent fast breaks (not just clear path).

If you want to get crazy to encourage more mid-range (and more spectacular dunks/plays at the rim):

Make the paint a trapezoid, use the 3 zones where you have 1s, 2s and 3s. You shoot the ball from the paint, 1 point. If you shoot from outside the paint but before 25', 2 points. >25'=3 points. FTs follow the same rule.

Get rid of the charge in the paint. You want to block the ball, block it. But none of this stand in the lane and fall down when a guy gets close enough to make it look like he bowled you over.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:10 pm

I’d be all for getting rid of charges in the paint. I hate charges. And those transition fouls are also terrible. Gotta make those a ft and the ball. Or even 2 ft and the ball.

I also want to get rid of the jump into the defender fouls. If you have to go sideways or forwards to create the contact with a player in the air, should be a no call or an offensive foul.
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Indy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:23 pm

agreed on both. Same with the stop in front of a guy so he runs into you foul Trae has perfected.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by Split T » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:52 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:23 pm
agreed on both. Same with the stop in front of a guy so he runs into you foul Trae has perfected.
Ya that’s dumb too...has he stopped? He got a lot of crap for it and his ft attempts dropped quite a bit. Or did defenders just adjust and stop falling for it?
Split: I would trade DA for SGA right now(11-24-2020)

Cap: I wouldn’t. Somebody remember to check this post in five years and see which of us looks the fool.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:17 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:52 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:13 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:11 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 am
it is a weighted metric already.
I'm not saying the data is wrong; I'm saying it is misleading. Do you think this year's Pelicans team is one of the 10 most efficient offenses in NBA history?
I understand what you’re saying..it’s misleading but just because efficiency for the whole league has made a huge jump. It’s a fact that the Pelicans have one of the 10 most efficient offenses of all time.
this
I think this is somewhat analogous to how Ingles surpassed John Stockton in Utah's 3 pointers made category. First you think, wow, Ingles just passed a first ballot HoF in a significant statistical category! And then you realize, oh, threes made... I'd say the offensive efficiency rating is not that meaningful when compared across eras. Start counting offensive efficiency from when Steph averaged more than 3 3pt makes per game.

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:19 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:00 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:43 pm
Just one reason why I have been supportive of some of the things Split and Cap said. I want the court to be 10' wider (maybe longer too), and make the 3 pointer 25' and a full semi-circle so corners are not closer. It even gives a little more room on the corners between the 3 and out of bounds.

Make the paint smaller (or trapezoidal).

Go back to what used to be allowed for continuation.

Punish intentional fouls to prevent fast breaks (not just clear path).

If you want to get crazy to encourage more mid-range (and more spectacular dunks/plays at the rim):

Make the paint a trapezoid, use the 3 zones where you have 1s, 2s and 3s. You shoot the ball from the paint, 1 point. If you shoot from outside the paint but before 25', 2 points. >25'=3 points. FTs follow the same rule.

Get rid of the charge in the paint. You want to block the ball, block it. But none of this stand in the lane and fall down when a guy gets close enough to make it look like he bowled you over.
What about making the key back into a key? They enlarged it to diminish the value of the post up player, but if you can establish post position and stay there much closer to the hoop, maybe the back to the basket behemoth can make a comeback. Tacko vs. Boban anyone?

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Re: Around the League: Week 13 3/15-3/21

Post by INFORMER » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:37 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:49 pm
In the past we'd have long discussions about guys like Bagley and Gordon because the roster was such a mangled collection of assets who didn't really play well together.

Now the Suns have a nearly perfect roster with clearly defined roles, so it's essentially pointless to really consider any mid-season trade for a significant young player.

I don't see any obvious way they can get better via trade this week. Everything would involve a pretty significant risk of disturbing the form and chemistry of the roster they have now. The ball movement has been good for most of the season, but it's been incredible these last two games. I don't see how that gets worse without enduring injuries.
Suns don't have the moveable parts. I'm not married to Crowder, but the Suns likely are; I don't think Jones can afford to burn that bridge.

I still wish we could something about the 4 spot and possibly a plan C at the 5.

I still like moving Carter for Muscala.

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