The 2021 Suns Offseason

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Cap
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Cap »

Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:09 pm
Drewsprocket wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am

If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
He was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Our bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.

What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
So we would have only 2 people in our rotation that are over 6-8. That seems lacking again.
3 when/if Dario returns.

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.

[...]

With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.

In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:

1. Zero improvement from Ayton.

2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.

3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.

And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.

Drewsprocket
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:09 pm
Drewsprocket wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am

If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
He was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Our bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.

What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
So we would have only 2 people in our rotation that are over 6-8. That seems lacking again.
Lacking where and when? I am not sure I agree it’s a need. We missed height when it came down to when Ayton was on the bench. Javale fits that need. One of our key strengths was our 3 and D and .5 passing between Bridges, Cam Johnson, Crowder, Ayton. Given that in the playoffs you’re only running 8-9 players what are you thinking in terms of roster moves?

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).

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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
Finals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.

The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).

And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:23 am
Split T wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:32 am
He showed up when it mattered and that’s highly encouraging, but I’m fine keeping him hungry. He’s said multiple times he’s motivated to get that 2nd contract..maybe making him play in a contract year is a good thing.
Then isn't that riskier than giving him the full escalators? If he's playing motivated he's more likely to be All-NBA and be eligible for the 30% supermax next summer.
If he makes a leap I’m not as concerned about paying him. We still also don’t have to give him the full max even if he makes All-NBA.
Thad Young please

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Shabazz
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Shabazz »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
Finals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.

The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).

And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
I never understood that quote from Monty. Yes, Kaminsky was good in game 6, but he did get earlier opportunities and we got slaughtered in his minutes.
Free Agent Wish List: [Womp Womp]

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.

[...]

With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.

In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:

1. Zero improvement from Ayton.

2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.

3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.

And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
If I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.

Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.

I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.

Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

Shabazz wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
Finals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.

The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).

And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
I never understood that quote from Monty. Yes, Kaminsky was good in game 6, but he did get earlier opportunities and we got slaughtered in his minutes.
His minutes for the 6 finals games:

4, 1, 14, DNP, DNP, 11.

He was a -12 in game 3, not great but not the worst on the team (Cam Payne was -18, Paul and Booker were both -13, Torrey Craig was a -12, Crowder a -11), and he shot 3/5 with 4 rebounds .. but the inference here is that it looks like Monty pinned some of that loss on Frank judging by his two DNP's that followed.

But as the series wore on it became clearer and clearer that a lack of height that was killing us.

Now I didn't think about using Frank either because he did look awful at times, but there was enough from game 6 to suggest he should have played more.

Again, Monty said it and my feel is Monty was correct.

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AmareIsGod
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by AmareIsGod »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html



That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.

In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:

1. Zero improvement from Ayton.

2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.

3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.

And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
If I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.

Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.

I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.

Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
Wouldn't that be great! In that world, I'd make sure all contracts had a sans-Productivity expectation requirement. If they don't meet it, they don't get paid what we negotiated.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

AmareIsGod wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:37 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm


Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.

In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:

1. Zero improvement from Ayton.

2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.

3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.

And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
If I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.

Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.

I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.

Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
Wouldn't that be great! In that world, I'd make sure all contracts had a sans-Productivity expectation requirement. If they don't meet it, they don't get paid what we negotiated.
Yeah I think you're right, you can't build in performance incentives as it will just offside the player.

Instead, I'd be clear about using it as leverage in trade talks.

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

*Clearly but softly, lol

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html



That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.

In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:

1. Zero improvement from Ayton.

2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.

3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.

And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
If I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.

Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.

I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.

Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
You mean how Ayton's scoring went down from 18.2 ppg in 2019-20 to 14.4 ppg last season with Chris Paul?

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

What do you think I mean?

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Superbone
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Superbone »

carey wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:44 am
BOO!
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

Drewsprocket
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I can see that. Probably why they kept slow footed Frank. Thad Young would definitely bring more of that but I’d hate to reduce minutes between our wings.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:51 pm
What do you think I mean?
I don't know, since I don't see inflated stats from DA due to CP3.

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

So you're locking into the view that Ayton will produce better statistics without Paul?

Ok.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:22 pm
So you're locking into the view that Ayton will produce better statistics without Paul?

Ok.
His scoring could go back up, yes. But what I'm saying is that his play is not dependent on Paul. In fact, he scored more as a rookie when we had no point guard than he did last season with Paul.

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