The 2021 Suns Offseason

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:40 pm
3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:22 pm
So you're locking into the view that Ayton will produce better statistics without Paul?

Ok.
His scoring could go back up, yes. But what I'm saying is that his play is not dependent on Paul. In fact, he scored more as a rookie when we had no point guard than he did last season with Paul.
A couple of things:

1. His play isn't entirely dependent on Paul, just that it's more efficient with him, as highlighted by his shooting %. His reduction in scoring is because he's got to fit in with more scorers; Bridges, Crowder, Johnson and Paul himself. - and once Paul goes those guys will still be here only he won't have an efficient a facilitator as Paul finding him easy buckets.

2. If you'd bet me Ayton's season averages were 14.4pts and 10.5rbds I would not have believed you. I would have said 16 and 12 (which is exactly his playoff average, 15.8pts and 11.8rbds).

A super max for a 14 and 10 guy (said a little brazenly, although his PER, as flawed as that stat is, has stayed flat for all three years) ?

Punchy.

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ShelC
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by ShelC »

How much does DA being the #1 pick factor into max contract talks?

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The Bobster
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by The Bobster »

ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:27 am
How much does DA being the #1 pick factor into max contract talks?
Once a player joins your team how you acquired his shouldn't have any bearing on anything. You're going to be paying him based on what he's done during the time on the roster, but mostly what you think you'll get from him in the future.

When the Suns were looking to unload Josh Jackson, Dragan Bender and Marquise Chriss the other teams didn't care where they were drafted, they were focused on whether they were productive and if they would be productive in the future.

Ayton is going to get paid based on his potential to be great. Just look at what Denver did with Aaron Williams and Michael Porter Jr. - it can be argued they overpaid on both of them, but they have an investment in them and obviously feel they have potential to match their contracts.
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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

How about this. Please answer the following question:

DeAndre Ayton is the ________ best center in the league. 2nd? 5th? What do you think? Who's better at the 5 right now than DA?

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Cap
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Cap »

HoopsHype puts him at 6, behind Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, KAT and Bam.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 118826504/

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

6 seems fair
Thad Young please

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

Jokic and Embiid are clearly better. Like no question. But I think you could argue (if you just look at his playoff performance) that he is in the running for #3. But if you look at his season performance, I would say he is 5th/6th best.

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wpmiller42
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by wpmiller42 »

I'm going to say he's 4th best in the league right now, behind Embiid, Jokic, and KAT, in that order. I honestly think he's not that far behind KAT if he can develop a bit more on the offensive end -- primarily getting to the free throw line. If he keeps working, I think he can catch up to Embiid and Jokic too in a year or two.

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

I think it’d be tough to say he’s surpassed Rudy. He was better in the playoffs last year than Rudy, but he’s going to have to do it longer than that for me to say he’s surpassed him. Bam is a toss-up. I’d be fine ranking them both either 5 or 6. Capela would probably be the next one.
Thad Young please

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Nodack
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Nodack »

As long as he keeps progressing and not regressing. So far he has steadily improved and his ceiling is high.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

wpmiller42 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:51 am
I'm going to say he's 4th best in the league right now, behind Embiid, Jokic, and KAT, in that order. I honestly think he's not that far behind KAT if he can develop a bit more on the offensive end -- primarily getting to the free throw line. If he keeps working, I think he can catch up to Embiid and Jokic too in a year or two.
I would agree with this.

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The Bobster
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by The Bobster »

Mori Chu wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:28 am
How about this. Please answer the following question:

DeAndre Ayton is the ________ best center in the league. 2nd? 5th? What do you think? Who's better at the 5 right now than DA?
5th after Jokic, Embiid, Towns and Gobert

But that is the Ayton we saw in the playoffs. If he regresses to regular season Ayton I would say anywhere from 5th to 10th.
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The Bobster
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by The Bobster »

wpmiller42 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:51 am
I'm going to say he's 4th best in the league right now, behind Embiid, Jokic, and KAT, in that order. I honestly think he's not that far behind KAT if he can develop a bit more on the offensive end -- primarily getting to the free throw line. If he keeps working, I think he can catch up to Embiid and Jokic too in a year or two.
He's lightyears ahead of KAT defensively. If he gives you an efficient 20 points a game he's better than Towns is.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

I have to wonder if Sarver and/or Jones not wanting to pay Ayton the max had something to do with Jeff Bower's sudden departure.

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3rdside
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by 3rdside »

3rdside wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:40 pm
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
Finals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.

The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).

And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
Re-upping this - I don't think it was a huge error, just *an* error as it's hardly guaranteed that we would have won the series on the back of Kaminsky playing more.

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Suns_Dave
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Suns_Dave »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:16 pm
I have to wonder if Sarver and/or Jones not wanting to pay Ayton the max had something to do with Jeff Bower's sudden departure.
How so?

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:16 pm
I have to wonder if Sarver and/or Jones not wanting to pay Ayton the max had something to do with Jeff Bower's sudden departure.
Pretty sure it wasn't sudden. When it was announced Jones was the GM, they said Bowers was there to show him the ropes as a new GM. Once you win executive of the year, should you really be paying someone to teach you the ropes? Especially when you already laid off so many of your workforce?

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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

I think Ayton is the 4th best center and that you can make a case for 3rd. I think Jokic and Embiid are clearly better. KAT is next in line, and while KAT is better offensively, he's bad on defense. So I think you can actually argue that you'd rather have Ayton than KAT for a contending team with other offensive weapons. Would we have won the title last year with KAT rather than Ayton? I would argue that we would have been a worse team. Then some folks would throw Gobert in the mix. I think if you go regular-season only, Gobert has a more impressive career so far. But Gobert has been exposed repeatedly in the playoffs to the point that his teams struggle with whether to even play him in key moments. Not so at all with Ayton; he's a net positive at all times. So I think Ayton has passed Gobert if his 2021 playoffs were not a fluke.

I guess my overall point is, I would max out the league's 3rd best center. I'd pay that. I also think that given age and health, you could see Embiid regressing at some point and Ayton sliding up to that #2 spot. And, well, Jokic isn't the fittest guy, how long is he going to play at an MVP level? I like the odds that Ayton could be in the mix for best center in the NBA within a few years. I really do.

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Superbone
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Superbone »

He's getting a max contract. It's just a matter of the details. And yes, Ayton is more well rounded than KAT and Gobert.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

Superbone wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:24 pm
He's getting a max contract. It's just a matter of which team gives it to him.
FIFY.

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