Game Day: Kings (1-2) @ Suns (1-2), Wed 10/27/21

[In2ition]

Could this have a lot to do with it? I didn't get to watch the game last night.

[AmareIsGod]

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Great post, and I agree 100%. So many people here call Ayton a "soft" player or other various derogatory nicknames. But he's a big man; he doesn't run the offense, and he doesn't have the ball in his hands the way Book or CP3 would. I don't see how he's supposed to just force his way to 15 shots per half if other players don't want to feed him or work with him on that end of the floor. It's really weird how much we go to him early in the game and then completely stop doing it in the second half. Ayton isn't perfect; sometimes he lets an entry pass slip through his hands. But in general, if you get him the ball in good inside position, he's an incredibly efficient scorer. I don't see why they go away from that at halftime.

I just worry that we aren't going to give Ayton a real chance to showcase his skills, and then we're going to decide that he isn't a max player because of it. Almost anybody looks mediocre if you don't bother to involve them or put them in a position to succeed.

Exactly. Personally, at this point I wouldn't mind if a new owner does want to bring in a new GM and a new Coach. Monty was criticized for the way he utilized Anthony Davis his first few years in the league also. It doesn't seem like he learned much from that.

I think that's an extreme take, though I do align with a lot of your Ayton sentiment.

[JeremyG]

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Great post, and I agree 100%. So many people here call Ayton a "soft" player or other various derogatory nicknames. But he's a big man; he doesn't run the offense, and he doesn't have the ball in his hands the way Book or CP3 would. I don't see how he's supposed to just force his way to 15 shots per half if other players don't want to feed him or work with him on that end of the floor. It's really weird how much we go to him early in the game and then completely stop doing it in the second half. Ayton isn't perfect; sometimes he lets an entry pass slip through his hands. But in general, if you get him the ball in good inside position, he's an incredibly efficient scorer. I don't see why they go away from that at halftime.

I just worry that we aren't going to give Ayton a real chance to showcase his skills, and then we're going to decide that he isn't a max player because of it. Almost anybody looks mediocre if you don't bother to involve them or put them in a position to succeed.

Exactly. Personally, at this point I wouldn't mind if a new owner does want to bring in a new GM and a new Coach. Monty was criticized for the way he utilized Anthony Davis his first few years in the league also. It doesn't seem like he learned much from that.

I think that's an extreme take, though I do align with a lot of your Ayton sentiment.

I'm not certain that we would be better off with a different coach (certainly would have to be a great coach), but I'm saying I wouldn't be too upset about a coaching change if this continues and especially if it impacts the Suns' success.

By next summer or next season it might not be a very extreme take.

[ShelC]

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Great post, and I agree 100%. So many people here call Ayton a "soft" player or other various derogatory nicknames. But he's a big man; he doesn't run the offense, and he doesn't have the ball in his hands the way Book or CP3 would. I don't see how he's supposed to just force his way to 15 shots per half if other players don't want to feed him or work with him on that end of the floor. It's really weird how much we go to him early in the game and then completely stop doing it in the second half. Ayton isn't perfect; sometimes he lets an entry pass slip through his hands. But in general, if you get him the ball in good inside position, he's an incredibly efficient scorer. I don't see why they go away from that at halftime.

I just worry that we aren't going to give Ayton a real chance to showcase his skills, and then we're going to decide that he isn't a max player because of it. Almost anybody looks mediocre if you don't bother to involve them or put them in a position to succeed.

Exactly. Personally, at this point I wouldn't mind if a new owner does want to bring in a new GM and a new Coach. Monty was criticized for the way he utilized Anthony Davis his first few years in the league also. It doesn't seem like he learned much from that.

Lol...chill on the new GM and coach talk. It's really not that serious. DA is not AD or KAT or Giannis. If he were, he'd be getting his touches every time down.

[Mori Chu]

I think Monty Williams has been great for this team. Talking about moving on to a new coach after a mediocre 1-3 start seems pretty premature to me given that we just went to the Finals with him.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

How much of Ayton's ineffectiveness might we take from the ineffectiveness of CP? Injured?

[Split T]

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

Facts are facts. I know Cam J is your boy and all but he's looked bad these first 4 games. Do you think 1 point and 1 rebound in 20+ minutes is NBA caliber? I know he's going to get better but he hasn't produced this season.

If Ayton had a game with 20+ minutes with 1 point and 1 rebound some people here would be calling for his head on a pike.

Cam isn’t asking for 40 million a year

[AmareIsGod]

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

Facts are facts. I know Cam J is your boy and all but he's looked bad these first 4 games. Do you think 1 point and 1 rebound in 20+ minutes is NBA caliber? I know he's going to get better but he hasn't produced this season.

If Ayton had a game with 20+ minutes with 1 point and 1 rebound some people here would be calling for his head on a pike.

Cam isn’t asking for 40 million a year

While a fair point, CP3 has been paid and is being paid. Booker has been paid and is being paid. Both in the upper echelon of $$$. Bridges signed a nice deal. All of those dudes, last season and especially this season, have had duds. Because Ayton is wanting to be paid the max and has shown to be as instrumental as any of our highest paid players, including our maxed out Booker, during the playoffs, the most important games any team plays during the course of a year, he gets shit on for not being consistent enough when he has a dud. He gets 21 and 21 and there wasn't a chirp about those numbers until I brought it up after the game. Instead I read a lot of "most of that damage was in the first half. He should have posted up and picked and rolled.." without anyone complaining about the lack of getting him involved after that dominant first half.

Kind of hard to put up 30 and 20 regularly when you're usually option 4 or 5 on offense most possessions, especially the 2nd half of games last season and this season (hell, and the postseason). There is a definite trend in 1st half vs. 2nd half production and it has a lot to do with the inability to run plays through him or make him any sort of focal point during the 2nd half. We go into a funk last night in the 3rd. Hey, how about we run some plays through our 80% shooting 7ft player that was killing it in the first 2 quarters! Nah, lets hoist a bunch of 3's and chew up large chunks of the shot clock!

"Put up max contract dollars for a full year and you'll get paid max dollars! Want to see you prove it this year!". Kind of hard when you're option 3, 4 or 5 many nights. Yet many will just focus on the lulls, the quiet 2nd half of a game and forget about the postseason and disregard the inability to get him involved as one of the largest factors.

[Flagrant Fowl]

It's equally on Ayton to demand the ball, assert himself, and take on defenders to make a play. His tendency is to look to pass before scoring most of the time. It could be said that he's playing within the scheme, but I don't see Booker backing down from a challenge when in similar situations.

Watch the second half again and notice how much better Richaun Holmes is defending Ayton. Also take note of the number of times Ayton catches the ball and doesn't even consider making a move to score.

(Edit: Looks like the NBA found that YouTube replay, but there are others if you want to watch more closely).

[Flagrant Fowl]

All this Ayton stuff is distracting from the fact that perimeter defense, specifically defending the 3-point shot, is the biggest reason the Suns are 1-3.

[AmareIsGod]

All this Ayton stuff is distracting from the fact that perimeter defense, specifically defending the 3-point shot, is the biggest reason the Suns are 1-3.

Its been terrible. Was our strength last year.

[Mori Chu]

All this Ayton stuff is distracting from the fact that perimeter defense, specifically defending the 3-point shot, is the biggest reason the Suns are 1-3.

What is causing it to be so bad? I try to watch our defense but will admit that I have trouble making a coherent analysis of why a given defense is good or bad on a given night. I find it hard to watch defensive play and extract useful info about exactly what strategy is being employed.

[Flagrant Fowl]

All this Ayton stuff is distracting from the fact that perimeter defense, specifically defending the 3-point shot, is the biggest reason the Suns are 1-3.

What is causing it to be so bad? I try to watch our defense but will admit that I have trouble making a coherent analysis of why a given defense is good or bad on a given night. I find it hard to watch defensive play and extract useful info about exactly what strategy is being employed.

Most of the time they're too late when trying to close out on shooters. Seems like a lot of it is due to ball watching on the weakside or slow rotation/switches.

[Superbone]

I thought the defense on the final shot was pretty good. Forced the shooter to fade a bit. He just made a tough shot. But that's why you don't play with fire.

[Shabazz]

I thought the defense on the final shot was pretty good. Forced the shooter to fade a bit. He just made a tough shot. But that's why you don't play with fire.

I thought McGee or Ayton should have been covering the inbounder. Not Chris Paul.

[Superbone]

I thought the defense on the final shot was pretty good. Forced the shooter to fade a bit. He just made a tough shot. But that's why you don't play with fire.

I thought McGee or Ayton should have been covering the inbounder. Not Chris Paul.

That's a good point. It could have been better.

[Nodack]

I agree that out perimeter defense has been poor. Everyone seems to be shooting lights out against us.