Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

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wpmiller42
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by wpmiller42 »

Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:18 am
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
Pretty much how I feel. Ayton is in the higher end of centers in the league, but there’s a huge gap imo from Jokic/Embiid to Ayton. Even KAT when he’s playing up to his potential is on another level. That’s the level I want Ayton to get to. Just needs to add a little something to his game, whether that’s shooting, playmaking, or an ability to attack off the dribble. Just needs something or his ceiling is Rudy Gobert.
I think Ayton is missing whatever Javale has. That cut to the rim, go up strong over defenders and dunk on their head, sort of thing. Whatever made defenders get out of Amare's way. That's what is keeping Ayton from being the best center in the league.

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LazarusLong
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by LazarusLong »

Bridges played a fairly long stretch in the fourth quarter ostensibly at guard.
That lineup seemed to work, with Kaminsky/McGee up front, Paul handling the rock and Crowder and Cam also on the floor.
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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Split T »

wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:18 am
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
Pretty much how I feel. Ayton is in the higher end of centers in the league, but there’s a huge gap imo from Jokic/Embiid to Ayton. Even KAT when he’s playing up to his potential is on another level. That’s the level I want Ayton to get to. Just needs to add a little something to his game, whether that’s shooting, playmaking, or an ability to attack off the dribble. Just needs something or his ceiling is Rudy Gobert.
I think Ayton is missing whatever Javale has. That cut to the rim, go up strong over defenders and dunk on their head, sort of thing. Whatever made defenders get out of Amare's way. That's what is keeping Ayton from being the best center in the league.
He is missing that…that’s the finesse part of Ayton’s game. I was noticing how McGee was getting so many at rim opportunities in the 2nd half. Ayton doesn’t get those. Is it because the defense plays Ayton differently? Is McGee more aggressive? I think it’s a bit of both probably. McGee is willing to put the ball on the floor and tries to dunk everything.

I still don’t think that would make Ayton the best C. His finesse game bugs me at times, but I don’t actually think it hurts him all that much as a player. He’s still highly efficient around the rim. I want him to add skills that make him less dependent on teammates to get him good looks.
My wish list: KAT, Pascal Siakam, Thad Young, Harrison Barnes, Kyle Anderson

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Indy
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Indy »

LazarusLong wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bridges played a fairly long stretch in the fourth quarter ostensibly at guard.
That lineup seemed to work, with Kaminsky/McGee up front, Paul handling the rock and Crowder and Cam also on the floor.
I missed that so I just checked the on/off charts. It looks like Shamet was the 2 for almost all of that time--except for maybe 3 minutes in the middle of the 4th. And that line up was CP3/Mikal/Cam/Jae/Frank. But that might be because despite Shamet's +16 in that stretch, he seemed invisible.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/bo ... 20PHO.html

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Split T »

LazarusLong wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bridges played a fairly long stretch in the fourth quarter ostensibly at guard.
That lineup seemed to work, with Kaminsky/McGee up front, Paul handling the rock and Crowder and Cam also on the floor.
Bridges looks confident attacking off the dribble…at least getting to the mid range. Would love if he could take that a little further and go all the way to the rim. We are severely lacking on rim threats…it does make me wonder if we’d have been better off with Oubre still around. Not in a swap for Bridges, but maybe for Cam or Crowder.
My wish list: KAT, Pascal Siakam, Thad Young, Harrison Barnes, Kyle Anderson

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wpmiller42
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by wpmiller42 »

Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:14 am
wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:18 am
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
Pretty much how I feel. Ayton is in the higher end of centers in the league, but there’s a huge gap imo from Jokic/Embiid to Ayton. Even KAT when he’s playing up to his potential is on another level. That’s the level I want Ayton to get to. Just needs to add a little something to his game, whether that’s shooting, playmaking, or an ability to attack off the dribble. Just needs something or his ceiling is Rudy Gobert.
I think Ayton is missing whatever Javale has. That cut to the rim, go up strong over defenders and dunk on their head, sort of thing. Whatever made defenders get out of Amare's way. That's what is keeping Ayton from being the best center in the league.
He is missing that…that’s the finesse part of Ayton’s game. I was noticing how McGee was getting so many at rim opportunities in the 2nd half. Ayton doesn’t get those. Is it because the defense plays Ayton differently? Is McGee more aggressive? I think it’s a bit of both probably. McGee is willing to put the ball on the floor and tries to dunk everything.

I still don’t think that would make Ayton the best C. His finesse game bugs me at times, but I don’t actually think it hurts him all that much as a player. He’s still highly efficient around the rim. I want him to add skills that make him less dependent on teammates to get him good looks.
I actually don't mind the finesse part of his game either. Olajuwon and Ewing were more "finesse" centers, but they also knew how to use their size. Even Amare could nail that 15-footer and knew when to use that. I just think if Ayton could be a bit more physical and specifically draw more fouls, there's not a better center than him in the game today. Getting other teams' bigs into foul trouble, making it possible for the team to get into the bonus earlier... that's all huge in contributing to wins.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Split T »

Would you put him above Jokic? I don’t really see him ever passing up Jokic
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:39 pm
Would you put him above Jokic? I don’t really see him ever passing up Jokic
I know people think that because Ayton was so great in the playoffs against Jokic that he is near/on the same level. But come on, it isn't close.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Mori Chu »

Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
I mean, I sort of agree with you. Yes, if you have one of the very best PGs in the history of the NBA, you can get by with a rim-running defensive center. But the moment CP3 ages out or retires, things will change a lot. "CP3's replacement" is unlikely to be even close to as good as CP3 is at finding his big man for easy baskets.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:18 am
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
Pretty much how I feel. Ayton is in the higher end of centers in the league, but there’s a huge gap imo from Jokic/Embiid to Ayton. Even KAT when he’s playing up to his potential is on another level. That’s the level I want Ayton to get to. Just needs to add a little something to his game, whether that’s shooting, playmaking, or an ability to attack off the dribble. Just needs something or his ceiling is Rudy Gobert.
I think Ayton is missing whatever Javale has. That cut to the rim, go up strong over defenders and dunk on their head, sort of thing. Whatever made defenders get out of Amare's way. That's what is keeping Ayton from being the best center in the league.
It's possible Ayton's smaller hands are a significant part of what he's missing in comparison to McGee. McGee holds the ball like a grapefruit on those dribble drives, much like Amare did. I've never seen Ayton handle the ball like that, he's always trying to guide it somewhere instead of outright grabbing it.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Indy wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:56 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:39 pm
Would you put him above Jokic? I don’t really see him ever passing up Jokic
I know people think that because Ayton was so great in the playoffs against Jokic that he is near/on the same level. But come on, it isn't close.
Usually those are the people who only watch Suns games and were upset the Suns didn't offer Kelly Oubre Jr. $20M a year.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Indy wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:49 am
So I guess Monty was wrong about Jalen getting some playing time last night.
I'm sure he'd have liked to but the lame performance in the first half probably forced his hand to go with Frank. No way Jalen could've been trusted to make the right play again and again with the Pels blitzing the PnR like Frank did.
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:51 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:49 am
So I guess Monty was wrong about Jalen getting some playing time last night.
I'm sure he'd have liked to but the lame performance in the first half probably forced his hand to go with Frank. No way Jalen could've been trusted to make the right play again and again with the Pels blitzing the PnR like Frank did.
Agreed. Just weird to have a quote before the game saying he will get time tonight, only to have a DNP-CD. Man we really screwed up that draft. I mean we literally could have blindly thrown a dart a list of the players left on the board that were projected to go in the first round and had better performance.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:17 am
LazarusLong wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bridges played a fairly long stretch in the fourth quarter ostensibly at guard.
That lineup seemed to work, with Kaminsky/McGee up front, Paul handling the rock and Crowder and Cam also on the floor.
Bridges looks confident attacking off the dribble…at least getting to the mid range. Would love if he could take that a little further and go all the way to the rim. We are severely lacking on rim threats…it does make me wonder if we’d have been better off with Oubre still around. Not in a swap for Bridges, but maybe for Cam or Crowder.
Did you do drugs????!????!! What in the hell kind of whack ass thought is that!

Booooooo! Booooooo! Boooooooooo!!!!!!

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by specialsauce »

Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 am
I think today shows why they didnt max Ayton. You can get solid C play out of a lot of guys if your PG is good. That money saved from an Ayton max is no doubt going to CP3's replacement IMO.
Huh

Us going down by 20 against a team that’s won 1 game on the year and missing it’s two best players, with our starting C going -19 until a final stretch made his numbers respectable while Jonas ate our lunch is what made you jump to this conclusion?

You guys are killing me today.

JeremyG
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by JeremyG »

Exactly. But we won, so I guess that automatically means we didn't miss Ayton, according to the analysis going on in here. Lol.

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by JeremyG »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:08 am
I didn't read a single person here say McGee was better than Ayton a month ago.
There were posts that got close to saying that, and the general sentiment among some seemed to be that Ayton was not needed--it's fine if we lose him because Javale (or any other center basically, lol) could just replace him.
Bucktastic365 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:45 pm
McGee is outperforming Ayton FOR WHAT WE NEED IN OUR SYSTEM.

Ayton on his own is a beast; if a team ran the offense thru him he'd be worthy of the max, but we are a outside team and I am more than happy that they didn't allocate money to Ayton.
We can get comparable value for a fraction of the max. Just my opinion
3rdside wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:01 pm
Nice take FF.

McGee averaged 28 and 11 per 36 in preseason, if you’re looking for a guide to *capable tall players in the Phoenix suns system*, and he’s getting paid $5m.
ShelC wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:30 pm
I'm ready to give JaVale a 3 yr extension and roll with him, Stix and Frank!
ShelC wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:39 pm
We got Javale and Stix. It'll be fine. Plus CP and Book can recruit other bigs. No lose situation.
By the way, there's a reason Javale has never come close to actually getting 36 mpg. :roll:

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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by ShelC »

I guess the sarcasm in my posts wasn't detected. I'll have to do better next time.

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Split T »

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:11 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:17 am
LazarusLong wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bridges played a fairly long stretch in the fourth quarter ostensibly at guard.
That lineup seemed to work, with Kaminsky/McGee up front, Paul handling the rock and Crowder and Cam also on the floor.
Bridges looks confident attacking off the dribble…at least getting to the mid range. Would love if he could take that a little further and go all the way to the rim. We are severely lacking on rim threats…it does make me wonder if we’d have been better off with Oubre still around. Not in a swap for Bridges, but maybe for Cam or Crowder.
Did you do drugs????!????!! What in the hell kind of whack ass thought is that!

Booooooo! Booooooo! Boooooooooo!!!!!!
Haha, I know you hate oubre…but it’s more the style…insert some other rim attacking wing instead of Oubre. Right now all our wings are strictly 3pt shooters and sometimes mid range guys. It’d be nice to have one that could get to the rim is what I’m saying.
My wish list: KAT, Pascal Siakam, Thad Young, Harrison Barnes, Kyle Anderson

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Pelicans (1-6) @ Suns (2-3), Tues 02/11/21

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:56 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:39 pm
Would you put him above Jokic? I don’t really see him ever passing up Jokic
I know people think that because Ayton was so great in the playoffs against Jokic that he is near/on the same level. But come on, it isn't close.
Ya it’s nowhere near close. Jokic won the mvp last year. He’s legitimately a top 5 player in the league. If there were no salary caps and in a completely free market I’d guess Jokic was worth 2-3 times what Ayton would be worth.

That’s the real problem with max deals…the very best guys are underpaid because of the cap on max deals. So while maybe a guy like Ayton could be worth 35 million, he’s not when you have a salary cap and other teams get far superior players for the same price.
My wish list: KAT, Pascal Siakam, Thad Young, Harrison Barnes, Kyle Anderson

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