Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

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Superbone
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Superbone »

ShelC wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:53 pm
"Jalen is out of the country"....where there's no internet or social media access that he can make this statement himself? Is this one of those "scheduled vacations" broadcasters sometimes take when they say things they shouldn't?

Never been a fan of Jalen. Glad that was cleared up and hope he's "out of country" with no pay.
Yep, that was WAY across the the line without any explanation from him. You don't just throw that out there without explanation.
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

Then who told Bickley they heard Sarver say it?

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by ShadowHawke »

Superbone wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:22 pm
ShelC wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:53 pm
"Jalen is out of the country"....where there's no internet or social media access that he can make this statement himself? Is this one of those "scheduled vacations" broadcasters sometimes take when they say things they shouldn't?

Never been a fan of Jalen. Glad that was cleared up and hope he's "out of country" with no pay.
Yep, that was WAY across the the line without any explanation from him. You don't just throw that out there without explanation.
Pretty sure Sarver's lawyers are sending demand letters to ESPN. The word is slander. Trying to spin it as something else is damage control. Which is funny, since that what's Sarver is trying to do right now.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by ShelC »

I think Bickley said he heard the story from the same source as Jalen. Whether or not that source is telling the truth remains to be seen. And I guess Bickley isn't saying the story is necessarily true, just that he heard it from the same person.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by virtual9mm »

ShelC wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:25 pm
I think Bickley said he heard the story from the same source as Jalen. Whether or not that source is telling the truth remains to be seen. And I guess Bickley isn't saying the story is necessarily true, just that he heard it from the same person.
They need to get to the bottom of this. Someday, they'll be using this as a case study for academic research. I suspect that this is Sarver having a general reputation as a jackass and it being used against him. I could be wrong but so far, the more serious allegations are being retracted.

The key is that we shouldn't try a man in the court of public opinion.

Can anyone repost the link of Sarver admitting that he used the n-word? Thanks.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by AmareIsGod »

virtual9mm wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:15 pm
ShelC wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:25 pm
I think Bickley said he heard the story from the same source as Jalen. Whether or not that source is telling the truth remains to be seen. And I guess Bickley isn't saying the story is necessarily true, just that he heard it from the same person.
They need to get to the bottom of this. Someday, they'll be using this as a case study for academic research. I suspect that this is Sarver having a general reputation as a jackass and it being used against him. I could be wrong but so far, the more serious allegations are being retracted.

The key is that we shouldn't try a man in the court of public opinion.

Can anyone repost the link of Sarver admitting that he used the n-word? Thanks.
The only thing that's been retracted was Jalen Rose. Did I miss other things?
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by specialsauce »

The video at Heckmanns memorial service should solidify this case of lewd behavior. Get his ass out

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by ShelC »

What Jalen said might not even be untrue, just that he offered it up as if it were fact with no background to the information. The NBA will investigate and find out what it can.

The funeral stuff was known IINM - it was reported in Henry Abbott's piece I think a year or so ago.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Wormwood »

What Sarver's wife did, if this was a criminal or civil case, would be considered witness tampering. The lawyers from the law firm hired by the NBA to investigate the front office can't put people in jail or anything, but that's how they're going to see these actions, and not look upon them kindly: these were not a neutral act, even if they were not intended to be intimidation.

And if they do determine that there elements in here that make it intimidation... oof. But no, you can't defend what Penny Sarver did. You just can't do that kind of stuff during an active investigation.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

AmareIsGod wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:38 pm
virtual9mm wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:15 pm
ShelC wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:25 pm
I think Bickley said he heard the story from the same source as Jalen. Whether or not that source is telling the truth remains to be seen. And I guess Bickley isn't saying the story is necessarily true, just that he heard it from the same person.
They need to get to the bottom of this. Someday, they'll be using this as a case study for academic research. I suspect that this is Sarver having a general reputation as a jackass and it being used against him. I could be wrong but so far, the more serious allegations are being retracted.

The key is that we shouldn't try a man in the court of public opinion.

Can anyone repost the link of Sarver admitting that he used the n-word? Thanks.
The only thing that's been retracted was Jalen Rose. Did I miss other things?
Yeah. that is it. And he didn't retract it, because he never said he said it. But the 7 people that heard him use the n-word haven't retracted a thing.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by JeremyG »

Nodack wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:11 am
JeremyG wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:02 pm
NEW STORY from Baxter Holmes:

Penny Sarver, wife of Robert Sarver, sent messages to three former Phoenix Suns employees
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/325 ... -employees
"This is Penny Sarver," one message began. "I know a lot of bridges were burned between you and Robert and you are very bitter. I want to remind you that real lives are at stake here."

Later, the message added, "Please put your hatred aside and realize the hurt you are causing by spreading lies and fabrications. Is your time in the spotlight that important? If something happens to one of my children, I will hold you and Earl Watson personally responsible. Think about your own child for a second and imagine the tables turned."
And yet she claims: "Any suggestion that I tried to 'intimidate' anyone is as silly as it is wrong and outrageous."

LOL.
From her perspective they are lying and fabricating these stories to hurt her husband, which hurts her family too. She doesn’t say I will hunt you down and kill you. She says she will hold them responsible. GM has had my car in their dealer parking lot for two months waiting for repairs. I hold them responsible. That doesn’t mean I am threatening them or intimidating them. Not a smart move by her I guess but, from her email she clearly doesn’t believe they are telling the truth. She would only get the perspective her husband gives her since she probably has no first hand knowledge and therefore doesn’t really tell us anything. If he was guilty he probably didn’t tell her the truth and if he is innocent and told her that, it is still just hearsay. She has lived with him for many years and she probably knows him better than anyone else on earth.
Or because she's lived with him for many years, she can't even see what he's really like (or doesn't realize how bad it is) and has deceived herself.

If you told the car dealer, "If something happens to my car, I will hold you responsible," that is a threat in itself.

But this is a completely different situation anyway, since it's dealing with an ongoing investigation. Her message was clear: don't you dare tell the investigators these things or else I will hold you responsible if something happens to my children.

That is the very definition of intimidation. She is intimidating them into not speaking to the investigators.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by JeremyG »

https://www.si.com/nba/2021/11/10/suns- ... okes-video

Wendy Heckmann: "Robert is a really good person and I’ve never heard him say anything derogatory or anything with any kind of racial flair or any kind of sexist flair or anything—he’s never done that in my presence."

Robert Sarver in her presence: "I’m gonna guess his receptionist has small tits."

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm
https://www.si.com/nba/2021/11/10/suns- ... okes-video

Wendy Heckmann: "Robert is a really good person and I’ve never heard him say anything derogatory or anything with any kind of racial flair or any kind of sexist flair or anything—he’s never done that in my presence."

Robert Sarver in her presence: "I’m gonna guess his receptionist has small tits."
And that wasn't the worst thing he said in that speech about her husband.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:55 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm
https://www.si.com/nba/2021/11/10/suns- ... okes-video

Wendy Heckmann: "Robert is a really good person and I’ve never heard him say anything derogatory or anything with any kind of racial flair or any kind of sexist flair or anything—he’s never done that in my presence."

Robert Sarver in her presence: "I’m gonna guess his receptionist has small tits."
And that wasn't the worst thing he said in that speech about her husband.
I feel it's necessary to not overlook the context. It was a "roast" event. He wasn't walking around the arena offices saying this stuff on video (as far as we know).

Heckmann’s widow Wendy told SI on Tuesday that Sarver’s remarks were in keeping with the spirit of the event, and she was not offended by them. “It was a roast—that’s what my husband wanted,” Wendy Heckmann said when reached by phone. “He wanted everybody to laugh at his expense, basically, and tell funny stories, and that’s what everybody did.” She added, referring to the reported allegations against Sarver, “That is not the Robert that I know. Robert is a really good person and I’ve never heard him say anything derogatory or anything with any kind of racial flair or any kind of sexist flair or anything—he’s never done that in my presence.”


The stuff in that story doesn't really bother me because it sounds like everyone in attendance understood the situation. The problem is when that type of speech and treatment of others bleeds into "normal" settings, which is the accusation against him.
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

When you roast someone, you say stuff that is kind of true, but find a way to say it in the worst possible way. But it is about that person. Not about his "secretary's tits" or the prostitutes on his boat.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I suppose. I've never been to a roast event, so I can't speak from experience. If we remove him from the situation, would it be a huge problem if a comedian said that stuff at the event?

I know in my bones that Sarver is an asshole, but it's in my nature to try and view things from all angles to fully understand it. I have a hard time using that video, in it's context, as primary evidence of his assholery.
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Mori Chu »

Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:15 pm
When you roast someone, you say stuff that is kind of true, but find a way to say it in the worst possible way. But it is about that person. Not about his "secretary's tits" or the prostitutes on his boat.
If you watch those Comedy Central roasts, the comedians say the most vile stuff about anyone and everyone in the room. It's part of the culture of roasts; nothing is off-limits. Should Sarver have talked like that? Probably not. But I think that particular example was one where he was reading the room properly and telling lewd jokes in a setting where they were permitted.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by JeremyG »

I think some of you are missing the point. First of all, it wasn't Heckmann's secretary that he was talking about. It was some guy sitting there on his phone.

And even if "lewd jokes" and roasting anyone in the room is the norm, the comment is about as sexist as you can get. It's stereotypical and even rapey. The implication is that the guy could have sex with his secretary any time he desired it. Notice he doesn't even say something like: "I'm gonna guess his receptionist didn't want to have sex with him." But rather, that the guy wanted to get a hooker instead because: "I'm gonna guess his receptionist has small tits."

If that's not a sexist comment, then I don't know what is.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

The point I'm trying to make is that video isn't anywhere close to enough evidence for the NBA to forcibly remove him as owner of the Suns.

That's the end goal we're all hoping to reach here, right? So I'm not going to give much mind to the surrounding noise like that video. There needs to be hard evidence of him talking to people like that in the workplace for anything substantial to come from this.
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by virtual9mm »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:40 pm
The point I'm trying to make is that video isn't anywhere close to enough evidence for the NBA to forcibly remove him as owner of the Suns.

That's the end goal we're all hoping to reach here, right? So I'm not going to give much mind to the surrounding noise like that video. There needs to be hard evidence of him talking to people like that in the workplace for anything substantial to come from this.
Yes, exactly this. There is just too much evidence that is circumstantial or even innocent that folks are jumping onto with pitchforks. Like what is Penny Sarver going to say except "How would you feel if this were happening to your kids." Now, it is intimidation? And his roast of a friend has now turned into evidence of sexual harassment? Come on.

This is a textbook example of someone who isn't well liked being beaten into the ground for things that someone better liked would totally get away with. And I wonder how many allegations will just disappear into rumors and hearsay once they are investigated.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy and his yes men like Jason Rowley either. I think that the organizational culture is terrible. But ask yourself what is likely the truth and how much weight you are putting on circumstantial evidence.

I really don't enjoy this thread and I am definitely not enjoying how one or two posters were jumping on my case with attacks bordering on the personal for expressing an unpopular opinion. I've taken a step back in my fandom and it sucks, frankly. I've wanted Sarver gone for a long time but let's be honest with ourselves here. We are trying him in the court of public opinion and it is starting to look like a witch trial.

I will wait to see what the NBA says.

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