Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by AmareIsGod »

virtual9mm wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:42 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:40 pm
The point I'm trying to make is that video isn't anywhere close to enough evidence for the NBA to forcibly remove him as owner of the Suns.

That's the end goal we're all hoping to reach here, right? So I'm not going to give much mind to the surrounding noise like that video. There needs to be hard evidence of him talking to people like that in the workplace for anything substantial to come from this.
Yes, exactly this. There is just too much evidence that is circumstantial or even innocent that folks are jumping onto with pitchforks. Like what is Penny Sarver going to say except "How would you feel if this were happening to your kids." Now, it is intimidation? And his roast of a friend has now turned into evidence of sexual harassment? Come on.

This is a textbook example of someone who isn't well liked being beaten into the ground for things that someone better liked would totally get away with. And I wonder how many allegations will just disappear into rumors and hearsay once they are investigated.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy and his yes men like Jason Rowley either. I think that the organizational culture is terrible. But ask yourself what is likely the truth and how much weight you are putting on circumstantial evidence.

I really don't enjoy this thread and I am definitely not enjoying how one or two posters were jumping on my case with attacks bordering on the personal for expressing an unpopular opinion. I've taken a step back in my fandom and it sucks, frankly. I've wanted Sarver gone for a long time but let's be honest with ourselves here. We are trying him in the court of public opinion and it is starting to look like a witch trial.

I will wait to see what the NBA says.
I don't think anyone was jumping on your case virtual9mm. You've been around for a long time. Nobody here has any ill will towards one another. My personal advice, if this thread is impacting you as a fan, causing any pain and making you feel misjudged would be to avoid it for awhile since it's going to be all things Robert Sarver allegations and investigation. With that comes opinions from many fans that clearly haven't been fans of Sarver over many years.

The investigation will yield whatever the truth is, or as close to the truth as possible. I think what I said is applicable to any fans here impacted by this thread. Everyone has done a great job of steering away from this topic on other threads so it shouldn't be too difficult to avoid this conversation if you actively choose to do so.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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3rdside
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by 3rdside »

virtual9mm wrote:
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:40 pm
The point I'm trying to make is that video isn't anywhere close to enough evidence for the NBA to forcibly remove him as owner of the Suns.

That's the end goal we're all hoping to reach here, right? So I'm not going to give much mind to the surrounding noise like that video. There needs to be hard evidence of him talking to people like that in the workplace for anything substantial to come from this.
Yes, exactly this. There is just too much evidence that is circumstantial or even innocent that folks are jumping onto with pitchforks. Like what is Penny Sarver going to say except "How would you feel if this were happening to your kids." Now, it is intimidation? And his roast of a friend has now turned into evidence of sexual harassment? Come on.

This is a textbook example of someone who isn't well liked being beaten into the ground for things that someone better liked would totally get away with. And I wonder how many allegations will just disappear into rumors and hearsay once they are investigated.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy and his yes men like Jason Rowley either. I think that the organizational culture is terrible. But ask yourself what is likely the truth and how much weight you are putting on circumstantial evidence.

I really don't enjoy this thread and I am definitely not enjoying how one or two posters were jumping on my case with attacks bordering on the personal for expressing an unpopular opinion. I've taken a step back in my fandom and it sucks, frankly. I've wanted Sarver gone for a long time but let's be honest with ourselves here. We are trying him in the court of public opinion and it is starting to look like a witch trial.

I will wait to see what the NBA says.
I’m on side with everything you say V9 but I’m not sure the culture is terrible - we just made the finals and we’re heading back there on current trend.

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pickle
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by pickle »

This court of public opinion topic has come up several times. I am not sure I agree with the way it's being used, feels like we are mixing different concepts.

1. As a public figure, Sarver has done and said things over the years leading to fans and particularly many of us on this forum forming opinions on him
2. Recently, ESPN published an article accusing Sarver of even more unpleasant behavior
3. The board jumps into a discussion about what this will mean for the Suns, forgoing the discussion of whether Sarver really is everything that is accused of in the article
4. He is being tried in the court of public opinion as a result of this article

I really don't think we can get from 3 to 4. Most of the replies on this thread have been about what can be done to remove Sarver if the NBA investigation did find evidence, few have asked to crucify him because of this particular article. Most of the anger and frustration have been built up over 17 years, not 17 days. Maybe I am missing some details, but my general impression is that many here want him gone because he's been consistently a terrible team owner for the last 17 years and this is the best opportunity to get rid of him, instead of people calling for his head because of this one article.

He may or may not be racist and misogynist, but I really don't think that's what people are arguing over... most of us just want him gone.

I have some thoughts about the Penny Sarver situation too, but this post is already too long and I'll stop rambling.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by pickle »

3rdside wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:05 pm
I’m on side with everything you say V9 but I’m not sure the culture is terrible - we just made the finals and we’re heading back there on current trend.
Judging from the Mavs situation and now corroborated with the Suns one, I think maybe in an NBA franchise there is a reasonable barrier between the basketball side of things vs. business side of things. Whether we agree or disagree that Sarver is everything that's been accused of in the article, there has been plenty of other reporting over the years to show that the business culture is not pleasant... I mean, goat turds?

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by 3rdside »

I tend to look at the humorous side of the goats, the trouser drop etc .. it’s a bit of juvenile fun and I fail to see too much wrong with it.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

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pickle
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by pickle »

3rdside wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:24 pm
I tend to look at the humorous side of the goats, the trouser drop etc .. it’s a bit of juvenile fun and I fail to see too much wrong with it.
I tend to agree, tend not to escalate things as a first reaction. But in the Suns case, there's a long history/pattern and that's hard to ignore. There's plenty of reporting over the years that Sarver is a micro manager and pretty unpleasant to his employees. In fact I think he admits to it himself on several occasions.

When confronted with isolated reporting, my first instinct is also to question its validity, but there's just been so much stuff over the years.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by 3rdside »

pickle wrote:
3rdside wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:24 pm
I tend to look at the humorous side of the goats, the trouser drop etc .. it’s a bit of juvenile fun and I fail to see too much wrong with it.
I tend to agree, tend not to escalate things as a first reaction. But in the Suns case, there's a long history/pattern and that's hard to ignore. There's plenty of reporting over the years that Sarver is a micro manager and pretty unpleasant to his employees. In fact I think he admits to it himself on several occasions.

When confronted with isolated reporting, my first instinct is also to question its validity, but there's just been so much stuff over the years.
I was the first guy calling for sarver’s head in the McD years - thought McD was the perfect manifestation of Sarver’s incompetency - but people can learn and change; making the NBA finals is a serious achievement and Sarver deserves some, if not a lot, of credit for righting the ship.

Most things I’ve read in this thread sound like a hit job on the dude for doing just that.

The N word is horrendous, but if it’s been dropped only extremely infrequently, if at all, that’s no reason the strip the franchise from him.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by pickle »

I think that's a fair perspective. Everyone changes, and he may have calmed down a little with the penny pinching... at least this summer when we didn't use our full MLE, a significant portion of the board, if not the majority, preached "in Jones we trust" rather than automatically assuming that Sarver was behind it all. Things got a little more heated when Ayton didn't get the max, but I still saw a fair bit of preaching for patience. So I would say the board has also changed its opinions on him as a result. However, it's hard to shake the doubt in the back of our collective minds that the organization achieved success last year in spite of Sarver, not because of him, and this article and ensuing investigation from the NBA is as close as we'll ever get to being a Sarver-free organization.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

3rdside wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:38 pm


The N word is horrendous, but if it’s been dropped only extremely infrequently, if at all, that’s no reason the strip the franchise from him.
I don't even know what to say to that. It's ok to be racist, just don't be too racist?

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by AmareIsGod »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:22 am
3rdside wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:38 pm


The N word is horrendous, but if it’s been dropped only extremely infrequently, if at all, that’s no reason the strip the franchise from him.
I don't even know what to say to that. It's ok to be racist, just don't be too racist?
Don't you know the rule of thumb Indy? You get 7 N-word freebies. After that, you're a racist. We don't know if Robert has used that term more than 7 times. Give the guy a break.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by pickle »

I guess the whole racism thing is not as big of a deal outside the US. Not familiar with the history of slavery in other countries but perhaps the struggle isn’t as deep as it has been in the States so the sheer hurtfulness of the word is also not as burnt into the public consciousness elsewhere.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by SunsRIt »

If the word is so offensive, stop using it. Everyone stop using it. Let it disappear from the English language.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

if?

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by SunsRIt »

Stop dude.

For. Is that better.

Instead of worrying so much about how the statement was made, why don’t you just respond to it?
Last edited by SunsRIt on Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Indy
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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

yes it is. thank you

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

wait, answer what?

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by SunsRIt »

Instead of worrying so much about how the statement was made, why don’t you just respond to it?

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by Indy »

I agree with you. If you aren't Black, don't say it. It isn't hard.

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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner

Post by SunsRIt »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:24 am
I agree with you. If you aren't Black, don't say it. It isn't hard.
It shouldn’t be said at all. Black or white.

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