Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Superbone »

ShelC wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:56 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:34 am
pickle wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:10 am
Superbone wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:06 am
pickle wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:43 pm
Why Ayton doesn't try to dunk everything within 3 feet of the basket is completely beyond me.
It's gotten to the point where I don't even question it anymore. I just assume he's always going to shoot a little bunny. When he occasionally dunks it, I'm always surprised. Luckily he's able to clean up a lot of his misses. Maybe he just likes the extra rebounds.
Somebody said he’s not an explosive leaper and I buy that narrative. He dunks when he can have a one two step without being bumped. Rarely see him go up into a man and dunk over their head like Shaq or reach around with his long arm to flush like McGee.
Here's a thought, McGee is helping us appreciate Ayton differently. McGee has the positioning, timing, and explosiveness we've been waiting to see from Ayton. OTOH, if McGee had Ayton's footwork and soft touch out to 18-feet, he'd be in the NBA 75th Anniversary team.

McGee is on a serious role right now, and my only concern is that he's peaking too early. Remember, he was in the playoffs, even if he didn't play a ton of minutes, and the Olympics. They have to be cautious with his health.

I liked that post game clip from Ayton. He sounded more mature, speaking less in hyperbole. That's a sign that he's understanding the game more and becoming comfortable. I'm fine with his more finesse style around the rim if he can start thinking the game instead of just being a part of it.
Good observation. Might've just been last night's presser but he seemed more serious, more mature and echoed everything about 1 game at a time, the culture, etc. Seems some of that stuff is sinking in and he's understanding what's at stake and what it takes to get there. Just speculation, but maybe not giving him the max deal he wanted right away opened his eyes a bit?
Yep, he's starting to do the things that are going to get him that full bag.
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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

LazarusLong wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
Perhaps seeing both of his backups (McGee and Kaminsky) turning in numerous peak performances made him realize he's not indispensable.
Effort defeats talent, when the talent lacks effort.

Ayton is watching his backups overplaying him, and has matured to understand that effort matters to get the BEST results. He was getting good numbers on mediocre effort, but hopefully we are starting to see what great numbers he can deliver on quality effort.

And, I’m sorry Jeremy G, but is most likely this awakening came from being snubbed on his extension, learning the hard side of professional playing, like Colangelo said. Rewarding mediocre effort with a max contract, sends the message that you are doing enough.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Indy »

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:23 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
Perhaps seeing both of his backups (McGee and Kaminsky) turning in numerous peak performances made him realize he's not indispensable.
Effort defeats talent, when the talent lacks effort.

Ayton is watching his backups overplaying him, and has matured to understand that effort matters to get the BEST results. He was getting good numbers on mediocre effort, but hopefully we are starting to see what great numbers he can deliver on quality effort.

And, I’m sorry Jeremy G, but is most likely this awakening came from being snubbed on his extension, learning the hard side of professional playing, like Colangelo said. Rewarding mediocre effort with a max contract, sends the message that you are doing enough.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by JeremyG »

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:23 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
Perhaps seeing both of his backups (McGee and Kaminsky) turning in numerous peak performances made him realize he's not indispensable.
Effort defeats talent, when the talent lacks effort.

Ayton is watching his backups overplaying him, and has matured to understand that effort matters to get the BEST results. He was getting good numbers on mediocre effort, but hopefully we are starting to see what great numbers he can deliver on quality effort.

And, I’m sorry Jeremy G, but is most likely this awakening came from being snubbed on his extension, learning the hard side of professional playing, like Colangelo said. Rewarding mediocre effort with a max contract, sends the message that you are doing enough.
If you've only seen "mediocre effort" from him in the past, then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

I also can't think of a single game that his backups outplayed him while he was injured, other than as far as scoring by Frank in that one game. There's no way the winning streak would have continued if Ayton had remained out. Sometimes we were barely getting by without him. Frank and Javale certainly weren't outplaying him.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:21 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:23 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
Perhaps seeing both of his backups (McGee and Kaminsky) turning in numerous peak performances made him realize he's not indispensable.
Effort defeats talent, when the talent lacks effort.

Ayton is watching his backups overplaying him, and has matured to understand that effort matters to get the BEST results. He was getting good numbers on mediocre effort, but hopefully we are starting to see what great numbers he can deliver on quality effort.

And, I’m sorry Jeremy G, but is most likely this awakening came from being snubbed on his extension, learning the hard side of professional playing, like Colangelo said. Rewarding mediocre effort with a max contract, sends the message that you are doing enough.
If you've only seen "mediocre effort" from him in the past, then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

I also can't think of a single game that his backups outplayed him while he was injured, other than as far as scoring by Frank in that one game. There's no way the winning streak would have continued if Ayton had remained out. Sometimes we were barely getting by without him. Frank and Javale certainly weren't outplaying him.
Per 36 numbers

Code: Select all

                                                                          
                  G GS  MP   FG%   FT FTA  FT%   TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV   PF   PTS
Deandre Ayton    11 11 331  .630  1.6 2.7 .600  14.4  1.7  1.2  0.9  1.8  3.3  19.1
JaVale McGee     17  6 277  .675  2.2 3.5 .630  14.9  1.3  0.6  2.1  3.8  6.1  22.7
Frank Kaminsky    9  0 181  .545  3.6 4.0 .900   8.2  2.6  1.6  1.4  1.0  2.8  18.9

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by JeremyG »

Lol, there’s a reason McGee has never gotten close to 36 mpg and was even getting fewer minutes than Frank in some of those games without DA. His level of play just can’t keep up for 36 minutes. And those rebounding numbers from Frank are atrocious.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by pickle »

Nodack wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:10 pm
And Ayton is getting older, has a family and that tends to mature people. He was a little kid when he got here mentally. Now he’s a man.

An observation. I like Tom Leander. He seems like a great guy but, I am definitely not a fan of Tom Leander as a play by play guy for the Suns in the past. He was annoying and tried too hard to become Al McCoy with his “Elevate and detonate” type sayings. I saw he was announcing and cringed. I have to say he wasn’t horrible. He toned it down and slowed down and I wasn’t annoyed by him. Good job!
Still can't stand when he says "Absolutely!" with every 3 pointer made. Makes me cringe.

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pickle
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by pickle »

We don't really have information to the inner workings of the day to day of the team, let alone how a player's maturity level might change. It's fun to speculate, but it's not like any perspective can be proven true or false. It's much easier to enjoy what Ayton has become and hope for more. I'm very happy that he's still playing hard and not sulking, and the team chemistry apparently hasn't been affected by the contract debacle. That he's also become more mature in interviews is just icing on the cake. Don't want to give anybody kudos other than Ayton himself though. He's the one that is being mature, and he's the one that's putting in the work.

Watched first quarter of the Jazz Grizzlies game from yesterday. Gobert is quite aggressive going to the basket, has a very clean and decisive spin move. Can't believe I'm saying this but I'd love for Ayton to pick up some of Gobert's offensive instincts.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by bajanguy008 »

When I haven't watched something for myself I hardly ever comment but Bro I'll be honest
It's hard for me to see DA needing to take anything offensively from Gobert. Like I said I'm sure you're referring to specific stuff but man oh man I would really have to peep that game

Definitely shocked me with that one lol 😀✌️
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Split T »

Gobert may try things from time to time, but he’s got awful touch around the rim. He’s a phenomenal lob threat but is often very awkward trying to score any other way. I haven’t watched him this year either though, so maybe I shouldn’t comment. Utah will need him to do something or teams will just put wings on him in the playoffs again like the Clippers did.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by The Bobster »

Gobert scores most of his points because he's really fucking big. He can shoot over anybody and he's a great rebounder and he takes up space.

74% of Gobert's shots are within 3 feet of the basket (Ayton is at 45%) mainly for a reason - he doesn't have the skills out on the court that Ayton does. Ayton's main issue is that he's not assertive enough. They should be getting him 16-18 shots a night instead of 11.5. Part of the blame goes on Ayton, part goes on the coaching staff for not making sure they keep him involved offensively.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Nodack »

I am very happy with the performance of our centers this year. Ayton has come a long ways. Is the competition helping him? I don’t know. I would like to think so. He is also fighting for a new contract too. Ayton and McGee are a formidable tandem and I am stoked.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Superbone »

bajanguy008 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:52 am
When I haven't watched something for myself I hardly ever comment but Bro I'll be honest
It's hard for me to see DA needing to take anything offensively from Gobert. Like I said I'm sure you're referring to specific stuff but man oh man I would really have to peep that game
Split T wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:02 am
Gobert may try things from time to time, but he’s got awful touch around the rim. He’s a phenomenal lob threat but is often very awkward trying to score any other way. I haven’t watched him this year either though, so maybe I shouldn’t comment. Utah will need him to do something or teams will just put wings on him in the playoffs again like the Clippers did.
How about none of us comment and see how much fun this board would be then.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by pickle »

Yeah I was surprised to see it out of Gobert too but he had two straight possessions where he took a hard dribble to the basket followed by a hard and decisive spin to get an easy layup.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (13-3) @ Spurs (4-11), Mon 11/22/21

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:21 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:23 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
Perhaps seeing both of his backups (McGee and Kaminsky) turning in numerous peak performances made him realize he's not indispensable.
Effort defeats talent, when the talent lacks effort.

Ayton is watching his backups overplaying him, and has matured to understand that effort matters to get the BEST results. He was getting good numbers on mediocre effort, but hopefully we are starting to see what great numbers he can deliver on quality effort.

And, I’m sorry Jeremy G, but is most likely this awakening came from being snubbed on his extension, learning the hard side of professional playing, like Colangelo said. Rewarding mediocre effort with a max contract, sends the message that you are doing enough.

If you've only seen "mediocre effort" from him in the past, then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

I also can't think of a single game that his backups outplayed him while he was injured, other than as far as scoring by Frank in that one game. There's no way the winning streak would have continued if Ayton had remained out. Sometimes we were barely getting by without him. Frank and Javale certainly weren't outplaying him.

Well, I did see an overall mediocre effort, but don’t worry, you don’t have to say anything. Ridiculous would be to see it the other way around, Ayton as a guy who gives maximum effort all the time.

But to starters, I didn’t say I ONLY saw mediocre effort from him, the guy is fully capable to deliver wonderful stretches of Dominayton. But my problem (and I’m not alone) is precisely that he played at that level just for stretches. Three full years of irregular effort during the regular season. Oh wait, he got himself suspended for 25 games, so add that up to the equation.

Lack of conditioning, mental lapses, teammates ignoring him (hard to believe if you think the goal is winning), or plain and simple lack of effort for the full 48 minutes. All of the above except the third one, it’s on him. But for third factor, you can easily see the difference this year on how deeper he gains position, how different he runs his lanes, the improvement on the roll, and specially on his hands, he is no longer a turnover waiting to happen after catching the ball in traffic. So, his teammates were ignoring him, or just watching a guy out of position, and/or lacking the hands needed to complete the play? Lacking auto critic cripples improvement.

You can argue that we were receiving this Ayton no matter the contract, I think we are looking a hungry Ayton taking on him the charge of earning his next contract, instead of pouting for the lack of extension (great to see this mature response)

As I said, if the team had rewarded him with the full max extension, the message is “well done, there you have the fruits of your effort”, and even if you want to signal all the averages and milestones reached by him, I have to point out, that we were lucky to get a player capable of averaging close to 20 and 10 dragging his feet for long stretches on any given game.

Imagine the possibilities of a fully engaged Ayton all game long this past three years!!! So, the REALLY GOOD numbers were there to max him out, granted, but sometimes the only way to push someone toward GREATNESS, is to denying him the easy way to get things done. “You can do better” is something we always have to take players to buy in, but it was specially true for Ayton, and we have witnessed during the playoffs and this early new season that he truly had on him the possibility to be even better that he was.

Team could have maxed “really good Ayton” and keep getting that level and consistency of effort, or choose to push him to deliver them “Great Ayton”. I’m glad they took the road less traveled instead of caving on fear to hurt some feelings.

Now, if you were completely happy with the previous “regular season Ayton” and not enjoying this new level of effort he is sustaining day in and day out, then it’s me the one out of words for you.

You were afraid Ayton would put on a number because of the snub, he didn’t. You were afraid the team would be distracted for his situation, they are not. And if everything stays the same, he is getting his max contract next offseason, most likely from us, all of it while the team is receiving an even better Ayton than last year’s playoffs, so I’m not sure what your point is anymore. Let’s enjoy the ride.

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