Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
Post Reply
User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:36 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:29 pm
He won’t if we’re healthy, but he will if one wing gets hurt.

Basically our current depth chart looks like this:

PG - CP3, Payne, Payton
SG - Booker, Shamet, Payton
SF - Bridges, Johnson, Nader
PF - Crowder, Johnson, Nader
C - Ayton, McGee, Biyombo, Smith, Kaminsky, Saric

It’s just imbalanced. Even if you assume Kaminsky and Saric don’t play at all this season, we still have 4 guys for 1 position.

I understand wanting depth, but as we sit, there’s 4 centers that won’t get minutes in the playoffs. We can currently survive 4 injuries and still have 2 playable centers.

Basically 6 playable centers to cover 1 position
3 playable wings that have to cover 2 positions
4 playable guards to cover 2 positions.

We’re 1 injury away from an unplayable wing or guard and 5 injuries away from an unplayable big.
We had 4 guys for 1 position to start the finals last year and it wasn't enough.

It also isn't fair to say we are 1 injury way from playing Payton a lot but 5 injuries way from an unplayable big. We literally have 4 of our bigs out with injuries right now. Hopefully 2 will be back soon.

Think of it this way, we have 4 good players in the back court (2 positions) and 6 good players for the front court (3 positions). Then we have 2 injured bigs that play 4/5 and 1 guard that sucks, a front court player that isn't good, and 2 more front court players that are unproven.
We had 2.5…Smith and Frank have shown to be significantly better this year than last. That’s why they count this year and didn’t last year. I think that’s where the disconnect is. We’d have been fine last year if those guys could play. That’s why we went and got McGee. Now we’ve added Biyombo and all of a sudden Frank and Jalen look like legit nba rotation bigs. We’re not even close to the same situation as last year.

And you can’t just do front court and back court. None of those 6 centers can play in our system at any other position except the 5. It’s backcourt, wings, center…that’s how our system works.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

Online
User avatar
Indy
Posts: 15222
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Dario spent 20% of his on-court time playing alongside DA or Frank last year.

And again, it isn't 6 centers. 2 are injured (maybe for the entire season), 1 was just picked up on a 10-day last week, and another has looked good for a week. Even Bender did that once or twice. We have 2 good centers, and hopefully one of the other guys can contribute. But we don't know that yet.

Maybe the disconnect is I don't feel comfortable to state that Jalen, Biyombo, Frank and Dario all look like they can provide us with solid minutes in later rounds of the playoffs (for various reasons). The last week is promising for 2 of them. Let's hope it continues and they are just as effective in extremely limited roles when DA and Javale come back.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

Online
User avatar
Indy
Posts: 15222
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:25 pm
In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
Yeah. I am not saying we shouldn't trade Dario/Jalen for a guy that can carry the scoring load at times without fucking up our cap or our defense.

What I am saying is that:
1) I don't think that trade exists in reality
2) We started the finals with 4 centers and ended with too few.
3) I am not confident that this last week is a good estimate for how the rest of the season/playoffs will go.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:32 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:25 pm
In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
Yeah. I am not saying we shouldn't trade Dario/Jalen for a guy that can carry the scoring load at times without fucking up our cap or our defense.

What I am saying is that:
1) I don't think that trade exists in reality
2) We started the finals with 4 centers and ended with too few.
3) I am not confident that this last week is a good estimate for how the rest of the season/playoffs will go.
Fair enough, I guess I’m just more confident in playing guys like Biyombo/Frank/Jalen than I am Payton or Nader.

I don’t know what we can get for Jalen and or Saric, but I think it’s definitely worth exploring. I think Jalen has shown enough that a rebuilding team will take a look for a veteran they really have no use for.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

Online
User avatar
Indy
Posts: 15222
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:36 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:32 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:25 pm
In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
Yeah. I am not saying we shouldn't trade Dario/Jalen for a guy that can carry the scoring load at times without fucking up our cap or our defense.

What I am saying is that:
1) I don't think that trade exists in reality
2) We started the finals with 4 centers and ended with too few.
3) I am not confident that this last week is a good estimate for how the rest of the season/playoffs will go.
Fair enough, I guess I’m just more confident in playing guys like Biyombo/Frank/Jalen than I am Payton or Nader.

I don’t know what we can get for Jalen and or Saric, but I think it’s definitely worth exploring. I think Jalen has shown enough that a rebuilding team will take a look for a veteran they really have no use for.
1) I am not as worried about Book/CP3/Payne/Shamet foul trouble than I am Ayton/Javale foul trouble.

2) But they would have almost no control over him.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 8323
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by In2ition »

LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
I'm going to have to disagree that the form is there. There is too much extra movement in his form and he splits his hands, where his guide hand ends up back, while his shooting hand is way forward. This explains why he is both streaky and subject to wild misses of all kinds. It's really hard to stay consistent with your shot when your form is like that. More variables in your form, the more things that could go wrong. That's why I he's shooting under .250 right now.

I think everyone in the org hoped he could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4, but it seems that they gave up on that happening when they declined his 3rd yr.

Or...conspiracy theory...they are driving his value into a 3rd or 4th string center to tank his value and sign him long term to under 4.5 mil, then unveil him as a PF next yr.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
ブランドンに行こう

User avatar
LazarusLong
Posts: 2588
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:58 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by LazarusLong »

The form is there, but it is deliberate. Reminds me of Casey Jacobsen .... therein lies the issue ...
Forget about Sarver--keep your eyes on the prize.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:31 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:36 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:32 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:25 pm
In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
Yeah. I am not saying we shouldn't trade Dario/Jalen for a guy that can carry the scoring load at times without fucking up our cap or our defense.

What I am saying is that:
1) I don't think that trade exists in reality
2) We started the finals with 4 centers and ended with too few.
3) I am not confident that this last week is a good estimate for how the rest of the season/playoffs will go.
Fair enough, I guess I’m just more confident in playing guys like Biyombo/Frank/Jalen than I am Payton or Nader.

I don’t know what we can get for Jalen and or Saric, but I think it’s definitely worth exploring. I think Jalen has shown enough that a rebuilding team will take a look for a veteran they really have no use for.
1) I am not as worried about Book/CP3/Payne/Shamet foul trouble than I am Ayton/Javale foul trouble.

2) But they would have almost no control over him.
For your 2nd point…that is a bit of a concern, but I don’t really see Jalen getting more than the 4.67 million he can sign for from an outside suitor. Unless he blows up and proves he can play at a high level for the rest of the season. Vanderbilt in Minny was very good last year and signed for less than that. Him being a restricted FA had something to do with it, but I just don’t envision teams throwing money at Jalen.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

Online
User avatar
Indy
Posts: 15222
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:22 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:31 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:36 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:32 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:25 pm
In that case, shouldn’t you feel ok moving 2 of the question marks? I’m not suggesting moving either of our 2 good centers.
Yeah. I am not saying we shouldn't trade Dario/Jalen for a guy that can carry the scoring load at times without fucking up our cap or our defense.

What I am saying is that:
1) I don't think that trade exists in reality
2) We started the finals with 4 centers and ended with too few.
3) I am not confident that this last week is a good estimate for how the rest of the season/playoffs will go.
Fair enough, I guess I’m just more confident in playing guys like Biyombo/Frank/Jalen than I am Payton or Nader.

I don’t know what we can get for Jalen and or Saric, but I think it’s definitely worth exploring. I think Jalen has shown enough that a rebuilding team will take a look for a veteran they really have no use for.
1) I am not as worried about Book/CP3/Payne/Shamet foul trouble than I am Ayton/Javale foul trouble.

2) But they would have almost no control over him.
For your 2nd point…that is a bit of a concern, but I don’t really see Jalen getting more than the 4.67 million he can sign for from an outside suitor. Unless he blows up and proves he can play at a high level for the rest of the season. Vanderbilt in Minny was very good last year and signed for less than that. Him being a restricted FA had something to do with it, but I just don’t envision teams throwing money at Jalen.
I agree. I am just saying his value is even less than you would think because there really isn't team control like typical with a #10 pick in year 2.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Gotcha, ya he’s in a weird spot since we declined his option…side note, why do they make you decide on the option a year in advance? Who does it even benefit to decide so early? Should be able to wait until the next off season just like all other options.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »



IT wants in?
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

User avatar
Flagrant Fowl
Posts: 6634
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:04 am
Location: Haeundae, Busan, South Korea

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I want in as well. Much like Isaiah Thomas, I'm not an NBA level basketball player.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 8323
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by In2ition »

LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:17 pm
The form is there, but it is deliberate. Reminds me of Casey Jacobsen .... therein lies the issue ...
Idk, the scissoring of the hands on the release I think is a large part of the problem. He really needs to clean it up, otherwise, it's not going to be the career he was hoping for, imo.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
ブランドンに行こう

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »



Well hopefully it was mostly a confidence issue and not a position issue. I still don’t really like him at the 4
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 8323
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by In2ition »

He's looked lost as a 4 in limited minutes, and I don't think that the opposing teams respect his 3 pt shot at all, so that just means congestion in the lane for the center.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
ブランドンに行こう

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by pickle »

If he were to play the 4, it would be in limited minutes in scenarios where we need more size and rebounding, for when Portis and Giannis are killing us on the boards. Jalen has very long legs and stiff hips so he doesn't move around well laterally and he can't really match up against quick guards, but he's probably a bit more serviceable chasing around a Bobby Portis on the perimeter.

I like that he shoots that 3 with some confidence, even if his % isn't high, and that he has a very compact and consistent free throw stroke. Haven't looked at that 3 point stroke in more detail though.

Definitely hope that he's the 4 we've been waiting for. He won't be able to provide playmaking but he is a bigger body who can rebound and hustle on D and provide some spacing on offense so he checks 1.5 of the 3 boxes we need in another 4. Enough that I, like Split, have shifted my focus to another playmaker in the back court.

User avatar
The Bobster
Posts: 5294
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:04 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by The Bobster »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:43 pm
He's looked lost as a 4 in limited minutes, and I don't think that the opposing teams respect his 3 pt shot at all, so that just means congestion in the lane for the center.
He looked lost everywhere in limited minutes.

Let's give him another look and see if things are different now.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695

User avatar
AmareIsGod
Posts: 3547
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by AmareIsGod »

The Bobster wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:34 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:43 pm
He's looked lost as a 4 in limited minutes, and I don't think that the opposing teams respect his 3 pt shot at all, so that just means congestion in the lane for the center.
He looked lost everywhere in limited minutes.

Let's give him another look and see if things are different now.
Agree. I don't think the position he was playing was the problem. He had limited minutes up until recently. Hard to get any sort of rhythm, confidence, or a feel for opposing NBA talent when you're getting 3 minutes one game during a blow out, 2 games in a row with no action, 2 minutes during a blow out, 3 games without action.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 14804
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

I just think offensively his value comes from rolling to the rim…he’ll be standing in the corner if Ayton is on the court setting the pick. He can still provide some value on the boards though.
My wish list: Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, Larry Nance Jr, Robert Covington, PJ Washington

Post Reply