2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
User avatar
Wormwood
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Wormwood »

Indy wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:21 am
pickle wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:03 am
Holiday is a big upgrade over Payton. He’s not the fourth string by any means and I’d love to see him develop under Paul for a couple of years. I just hope he’s not too expensive to keep.

I love Craig but he’s not a better rebounder than Crowder. He’s longer than Crowder and is a more opportunistic offensive rebounder but overall Crowder is better at positioning and is bulkier so he is a much better defensive rebounder which is our bigger problem to be honest.

I certainly hope the depth can push everyone’s minutes down a bit. Don’t expect Craig to be an earth mover tho. His presence is so that when we dig into the bench and in late game situations where we have a sizable lead and want to rest the starters that things don’t go to shit.
i agree with every word of this.
Last year with the Suns, Craig averaged 10.2 R/40. Crowder averaged 6.8.

It's not even freaking close.

And if you want to keep arguing that Crowder's a better rebounder, STFU, and go live in your own universe where 6.8 > 10.2.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by pickle »

Geez, emotional much?

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

lol must be a tough day. i know i have been there lately. i hope you are ok wormy.

you can't use simply rebounds per 36 or 40 or whatever to see who is a better rebounder. And rebounding isn't just about who comes down with the ball. A big part of rebounding is simply keeping your guy from getting it, especially if you are a shorter guy playing the 4.

User avatar
Wormwood
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Wormwood »

Yeah, he did a bang up job of it in the finals.

Next.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25476
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Split T »

Craig was definitely a better rebounder last year for us than Crowder was, albeit in a smaller role. Could simply be that we asked him to rebound more. There’s no question he’s a better offensive rebounder, has been his whole career(it’s not really close). Defensive rebounding they have generally been pretty similar, though Craig rebounded at a significantly higher rate last year than Crowder ever has. It’s also an outlier for Craig’s career. So we’ll see.

I tend to think they probably are similar defensive rebounders and we specifically asked Craig to focus on defensive rebounding last year. If Crowder played a smaller role and we told him to focus more on the glass, he might be able to do similarly. Although Craig is definitely longer and more athletic, which helps.

Rebounding(specifically defensive) is one of the more misleading stats though. At least in the modern game. Teams rarely crash the offensive glass like they used to and I’d say a majority of defensive rebounds are uncontested. Your rebound totals probably say more about your defensive role(near the basket) or your offensive role(initiator who stays back to bring the ball up the court). I have no doubt Bridges could outrebound CP3 if we wanted, but Bridges role is to get out in transition and that suppresses his rebound totals. I think we could go a long ways still on how we evaluate rebounding. I’d love to see a contested rebound rate. The percentage a player gets, plus how often people even crash the glass when said player is near the rim.

User avatar
bajanguy008
Posts: 7194
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Barbados, Caribbean

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by bajanguy008 »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:05 pm
BYE ABDEl!!!!!!!!


Oh sweet Jesus GOODBYE
Smh....
Just called you out in a different thread lol
Poor guy never did you a thing 😀
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

User avatar
bajanguy008
Posts: 7194
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Barbados, Caribbean

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by bajanguy008 »

Jae's shooting has been poor since he came back and that is a fair point
I don't track the +/- stuff but seems like he's still doing the little things and impacting the game. Don't think it's coincidence that he has racked up his biggest rebounding games in this stretch he's shooting poorly as he probably is consciously looking to impact the game in other ways.

I know one of you guys who are sharp with those data sites might tell me that I'm wrong for putting him in the Caruso, Tucker bracket of players that individual box score stats don't tell the whole story of their impact
Just seems that way to me 🤷🏾‍♂️
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25476
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Split T »

The two catch all metrics I’ve heard are the most respected amongst basketball minds are Estimated plus minus from dunksandthrees.com and Daily Plus Minus from Darko…EPM tells you more how they’ve played(past tense) and DPM tells you how they are playing(present) and is a pretty good predictive tool(future).

Here’s how the suns players rank in each:

EPM:
1. Chris Paul +5.3(7th in the league)
2. Javale McGee +3.4(29th)
3. Devin Booker +3.2(33rd)
4. Deandre Ayton +3.1(37th)
5. Bismack Biyombo +1.7(81st)
6. Cam Johnson +1.3(88th)
7. Frank Kaminsky +1.2(93rd)
8. Mikal Bridges +0.8(107th)
9. Jae Crowder +0.7(114th)
10. Torrey Craig -1.5(246th)
11. Landry Shamet -1.9(272nd)
12. Cam Payne -2.2(298th)
13. Aaron Holiday -4.0(404th)
14. Elfrid Payton -5.5(462nd)
15. Ish Wainright -5.6(466th)

DPM:
1. Chris Paul +4.1(10th)
2. Devin Booker +3.0(21st)
3. Deandre Ayton +2.2(35th)
4. Jae Crowder +1.1(83rd)
5. Cam Johnson +0.9(96th)
6. Mikal Bridges +0.8(104th)
7. Javale McGee +0.4(128th)
8. Dario Saric 0(164th) You don’t drop if you don’t play
9. Cam Payne -0.3(193rd)
10. Frank Kaminsky -0.9(257th)
11. Landry Shamet -0.9(258th)
12. Bismack Biyombo -1.1(277th)
13. Aaron Holiday -1.8(388th)
14. Ish Wainright -1.8(391st)
15. Elfrid Payton -2.2(428th)
16. Torrey Craig -2.6(469th)

User avatar
Flagrant Fowl
Posts: 13786
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:04 am
Location: Haeundae, Busan, South Korea

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Great insight from the "fuck this team" guy... :roll:
Send me a PM if you're interested in joining the phx-suns.net fantasy basketball league.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:00 pm
Great insight from the "fuck this team" guy... :roll:
who?

User avatar
AmareIsGod
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by AmareIsGod »

Indy wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:42 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:00 pm
Great insight from the "fuck this team" guy... :roll:
who?
The ever optimist on .net. Good old wormy.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

User avatar
Flagrant Fowl
Posts: 13786
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:04 am
Location: Haeundae, Busan, South Korea

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Image
Send me a PM if you're interested in joining the phx-suns.net fantasy basketball league.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

ah. yeah. nothing new. he must be having a bad day.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by pickle »

Split T wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:57 am
Craig was definitely a better rebounder last year for us than Crowder was, albeit in a smaller role. Could simply be that we asked him to rebound more. There’s no question he’s a better offensive rebounder, has been his whole career(it’s not really close). Defensive rebounding they have generally been pretty similar, though Craig rebounded at a significantly higher rate last year than Crowder ever has. It’s also an outlier for Craig’s career. So we’ll see.

I tend to think they probably are similar defensive rebounders and we specifically asked Craig to focus on defensive rebounding last year. If Crowder played a smaller role and we told him to focus more on the glass, he might be able to do similarly. Although Craig is definitely longer and more athletic, which helps.

Rebounding(specifically defensive) is one of the more misleading stats though. At least in the modern game. Teams rarely crash the offensive glass like they used to and I’d say a majority of defensive rebounds are uncontested. Your rebound totals probably say more about your defensive role(near the basket) or your offensive role(initiator who stays back to bring the ball up the court). I have no doubt Bridges could outrebound CP3 if we wanted, but Bridges role is to get out in transition and that suppresses his rebound totals. I think we could go a long ways still on how we evaluate rebounding. I’d love to see a contested rebound rate. The percentage a player gets, plus how often people even crash the glass when said player is near the rim.
I agree with mostly everything here. The competition also matters. When you are going up against the second stringers vs. starters, when you are rebounding against whomever was coming off the bench at the 4 for the lakers last year vs. the starting lineup of AD and Jordan, the number of rebounds you gather is going to be different. I love Craig, have nothing against him, but I do think that he’s not quite the defensive rebounder that Crowder is due to their different body types. Crowder might not grab as many, but his being on the court allows the Suns to get more based on the eye test (tho I don’t trust it that much, just a general sense). On the offensive rebounding end I do think his speed length and effort gives him a significant advantage. I wish Crowder had a 7 foot wingspan. Would make him a much more effective player in this role.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

And Crowder spent the vast majority of his minutes rebounding with Ayton on the court, where many times Craig was the center while he was rebounding.

User avatar
AmareIsGod
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by AmareIsGod »

I'm just glad Craig played like a big man when he was on the floor with us, regardless of his rebounding prowess vs Crowder or whomever. Very glad to have him back!
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

User avatar
bajanguy008
Posts: 7194
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Barbados, Caribbean

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by bajanguy008 »

Tsk Tsk AIG
What a cop out bro....

Pick a side !!! :twisted: :lol:
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

lol

User avatar
AmareIsGod
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by AmareIsGod »

bajanguy008 wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:36 am
Tsk Tsk AIG
What a cop out bro....

Pick a side !!! :twisted: :lol:
I work in sales. Had to dip into my work brain for a minute.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 19339
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 2022 Trade Deadline Talk

Post by Indy »

lol. as you can all tell, I am not a sales person.

Post Reply