Phx-Suns.Net

Not sure where to put this so I’ll throw it in an old around the league thread…working on my all time rankings..Where am I wrong? Pay more attention to the tiers rather than their place in the tier, haven’t given that much thought yet. Especially need help with the older pre-merger guys.

Tier 1
Michael Jordan
LeBron James

Tier 2
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O’Neal
Kobe Bryant
Bill Russell(Pre)
Wilt Chamberlain(Pre)

Tier 3
Steph Curry
Kevin Durant
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Julius Irving
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Jerry West(Pre)
Oscar Robertson(Pre)

Tier 4
Chris Paul
Dwyane Wade
Scottie Pippen
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Gary Payton
Kawhi Leonard
John Stockton
James Harden
Steve Nash
Allen Iverson
George Gervin
Adrian Dantley
Jason Kidd
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Elgin Baylor(Pre)
John Havlicek(Pre)
Bob Pettit(Pre)
George Mikan(Pre)

I may quibble about a few others, but Olajuwon belongs in Tier 2.
Rockets won two championships largely on his back.

I'd also move Baylor into Tier 3. Before his knee injuries made him merely mortal, Elgin was an offensive juggernaut.

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Malone and Stockton should be in the same tier. You don’t have one without the other.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Hard to argue with that list.

A few names perhaps overlooked:
Hal Greer ... incredibly steady, if not spectacular
Walt Frazier ... one of the engines of the great early '70s Knicks teams
Pete Maravich ... spectacular, when not hurt
Elvin Hayes ... averaged 21 pts and 12.5 rebs over a long career.
Paul Arizin ... averaged almost 23 ppg. Career shortened by military service.
Dave Cowens ... undersized center with phenomenal work rate.

LazarusLong wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:04 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Hard to argue with that list.

A few names perhaps overlooked:
Hal Greer ... incredibly steady, if not spectacular
Walt Frazier ... one of the engines of the great early '70s Knicks teams
Pete Maravich ... spectacular, when not hurt
Elvin Hayes ... averaged 21 pts and 12.5 rebs over a long career.
Paul Arizin ... averaged almost 23 ppg. Career shortened by military service.
Dave Cowens ... undersized center with phenomenal work rate.

I can certainly see the case for Frazier, Hayes, Arizin and Cowens (and even Neil Johnston). Greer was steady like Lenny Wilkens, but not quite on the same level as the guys on this list. And I'm just not as big of a Maravich fan as some people. Great scorer, not very efficient. Let's just leave it at that.

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:03 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Malone and Stockton should be in the same tier. You don’t have one without the other.

Actually, if there's someone I'm tempted to move up it's David Robinson.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

I did have a tier 5 I didn’t post, Schayes and Barry are on it and I was close to moving Barry to 4. Also almost moved Dantley to 5.

I’ll look at Olajuwon as you and Laz say move him up.

LazarusLong wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:04 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Hard to argue with that list.

A few names perhaps overlooked:
Hal Greer ... incredibly steady, if not spectacular
Walt Frazier ... one of the engines of the great early '70s Knicks teams
Pete Maravich ... spectacular, when not hurt
Elvin Hayes ... averaged 21 pts and 12.5 rebs over a long career.
Paul Arizin ... averaged almost 23 ppg. Career shortened by military service.
Dave Cowens ... undersized center with phenomenal work rate.

I had a tier 5 and all those guys except Maravich and Cowens were on it. Frazier and Barry were the last two I left off tier 4

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:13 am

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:03 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am

Sp. - Julius Erving

I would group them this way -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan
IV - Robinson, Stockton, Erving, Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki
V - Schayes, Barry, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin

Add to your list - Dolph Schayes, Rick Barry
Drop from your list - Dantley, Miller

Malone and Stockton should be in the same tier. You don’t have one without the other.

Actually, if there's someone I'm tempted to move up it's David Robinson.

I’m tempted as well, I liked him a tier below Hakeem, but if I’m moving Hakeem up, Robinson can go up.

I - Jordan, James
II - Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Curry, Durant
III - Barkley, Antetokounmpo, David Robinson, Wade, Garnett, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Pippen, Dirk
IV - Ewing, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, Kidd, Nash, Dominique, Reggie

Just based on who I've seen and most familiar with. You could sprinkle in Oscar, Moses, West, and some of the older guys around 2 or 3. I'd probably put more players like Harden, Paul, VC, Paul Pierce, Drexler, TMac, Payton in 4.

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:32 am

I’m tempted as well, I liked him a tier below Hakeem, but if I’m moving Hakeem up, Robinson can go up.

I don't think there's much separating the two of them and Shaq. Shaq was almost unstoppable on offense, Robinson and Olajuwon were better defensively.

The guy I think gets left out of the discussion too much is Moses Malone. He was a beast - you could tell Kareem hated to play against him - and three-time MVP. Probably the greatest "effort player" ever. He's what Cotton would have called a "dirt worker" except he was a superstar doing it.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:51 am

I - Jordan, James
II - Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Curry, Durant
III - Barkley, Antetokounmpo, David Robinson, Wade, Garnett, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Pippen, Dirk
IV - Ewing, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, Kidd, Nash, Dominique, Reggie

Just based on who I've seen and most familiar with. You could sprinkle in Oscar, Moses, West, and some of the older guys around 2 or 3. I'd probably put more players like Harden, Paul, VC, Paul Pierce, Drexler, TMac, Payton in 4.

Drexler's a good call. From 1987-88 to 1991-92 he was really great.

Stockton is arguably the best point guard in NBA history. He leads in career assists and steals. And it’s not even close.

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:25 am

Stockton is arguably the best point guard in NBA history. He leads in career assists and steals. And it’s not even close.

Only if you don't think of Magic and Oscar as point guards.

Stockton and Paul are clearly the best "pure point guards" (meaning small guys who are pass-first players). Curry has a higher peak, but Stockton has a much longer period at his peak and was much more durable, so I can see making an argument for him there. (I think Curry is better though, but you can argue he's not a "pure" point guard and that Draymond Green fills that role)

Revised -

I - Jordan, James, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar
II - Russell, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon, M. Malone
III - Curry, Durant, Barkley, K. Malone, Antetokounmpo, West, Robertson, Baylor, Bryant, Mikan, Robinson
IV - Stockton, Erving (moves up a tier if you include ABA), Pettit, Garnett, Paul, Pippen, Nowitzki, Barry, Durant
V - Schayes, Wade, Thomas, Payton, Leonard, Harden, Kidd, Nash, Ewing, Havlicek, Cousy, Iverson, Gervin, Frazier, Cowens, Hayes, Arizin, Drexler, Johnston, Gilmore (if you include the ABA)

Loose Guidelines -
I - Players in the discussion for greatest ever
II - Players in discussion for top 10 greatest ever
III - Perennial MVP level players, in the discussion for to 20 players ever
IV - Perennial All-NBA players for nearly their entire careers
V - Perennial All-NBA players for the majority of their careers, comfortably among the to 50 (or so) players ever

Active players could arguably be added to the list - Jokić, Embiid

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:25 am

Stockton is arguably the best point guard in NBA history. He leads in career assists and steals. And it’s not even close.

He just played forever. Was never even the best player on his own team. Only 2 1st team All-NBA selections. Can’t be the best pg all time if he was never really the best active pg at any time.

Magic and Curry are clearly ahead of him. Oscar/West are too depending on what position you consider them. I put CP3, Stockton, Isiah, Nash, and Payton all in the same tier. CP3 is top for me.

Also thanks to whoever made a new thread, sorry I threw this in an around the league one haha

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:01 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:51 am

I - Jordan, James
II - Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Curry, Durant
III - Barkley, Antetokounmpo, David Robinson, Wade, Garnett, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Pippen, Dirk
IV - Ewing, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, Kidd, Nash, Dominique, Reggie

Just based on who I've seen and most familiar with. You could sprinkle in Oscar, Moses, West, and some of the older guys around 2 or 3. I'd probably put more players like Harden, Paul, VC, Paul Pierce, Drexler, TMac, Payton in 4.

Drexler's a good call. From 1987-88 to 1991-92 he was really great.

For some reason I thought I had Drexler in tier 4, but I guess I didn’t. He should be there. He had the misfortune of his career overlapping with another SG who was better than him in every way. Probably underrated because of it

Top PG & PG/SG

Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Steph Curry
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Isiah Thomas
Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Bob Cousy

(I see James Harden and Allen Iversen as SGs)

I'm putting Stockton ahead of Nash because he had a much longer peak, was a much better defensive player and never missed any games ("availability is the best ability").