All Star Weekend 2022

[The Bobster]

And I love the old-timey players, but Pete Maravich doesn't deserve to be there either.

[Split T]

Dwight was a 5 time 1st team All-NBA, only 26 guys in history have that many. He was 3 time DPOY. He fell off quickly, but 5 years as a top 5 guy in the league and 3 more years top 10-15. That’s top 75 for sure.

Eh. I think you need some longevity in your excellence.

5 years 1st Team all-nba isn’t enough? It’s more than Nash, Paul, Dirk, KG, Curry, Moses, Pippen, Robinson…same amount as Barkley and Dr. J

And Howard wasn't as good as any of those players you just listed.

Exactly. And like Mori said, being a 1st team Center doesn't mean you are a top 5 player in the league. It means you are the best center in the league.

Again, I agree that there are guys on that list that shouldn't be there (yet) like Dame. But that doesn't mean Howard should be in there.

Ok, how about being top 5 in mvp voting 4 years in a row? Does that make him a top 5 player?

He’s 34th all time in win shares, 60th all time in WS/48. He’s 15th all time in blocks, he’ll be top 10 all time in rebounds(currently 11th).

I don’t know if you guys are just forgetting how good Dwight was or just don’t like him, but I don’t see any argument for keeping him out. He was clearly robbed.

[Split T]

Dwight was a 5 time 1st team All-NBA, only 26 guys in history have that many. He was 3 time DPOY. He fell off quickly, but 5 years as a top 5 guy in the league and 3 more years top 10-15. That’s top 75 for sure.

Eh. I think you need some longevity in your excellence.

5 years 1st Team all-nba isn’t enough? It’s more than Nash, Paul, Dirk, KG, Curry, Moses, Pippen, Robinson…same amount as Barkley and Dr. J

No, it’s not. It’s not all about 1st team NBA. It’s about consistently high performance over a 10 year period or more.

Here’s his numbers over a 10 year period, tell me where he faltered:

15.8/12.5/1.4 on 53% shooting
17.6/12.3/1.9 on 60% shooting
20.7/14.2/2.1 on 60% shooting
20.6/13.8/2.9 on 57% shooting
18.3/13.2/2.8 on 61% shooting
22.9/14.1/2.4 on 59% shooting
20.6/14.5/2.1 on 57% shooting
17.1/12.4/2.4 on 58% shooting
18.3/12.2/1.8 on 59% shooting
15.8/10.5/1.3 on 59% shooting

18.8/13.1/2.2 on 58% shooting over all 10 years

[Indy]

Dwight was a 5 time 1st team All-NBA, only 26 guys in history have that many. He was 3 time DPOY. He fell off quickly, but 5 years as a top 5 guy in the league and 3 more years top 10-15. That’s top 75 for sure.

Eh. I think you need some longevity in your excellence.

5 years 1st Team all-nba isn’t enough? It’s more than Nash, Paul, Dirk, KG, Curry, Moses, Pippen, Robinson…same amount as Barkley and Dr. J

No, it’s not. It’s not all about 1st team NBA. It’s about consistently high performance over a 10 year period or more.

Here’s his numbers over a 10 year period, tell me where he faltered:

15.8/12.5/1.4 on 53% shooting
17.6/12.3/1.9 on 60% shooting
20.7/14.2/2.1 on 60% shooting
20.6/13.8/2.9 on 57% shooting
18.3/13.2/2.8 on 61% shooting
22.9/14.1/2.4 on 59% shooting
20.6/14.5/2.1 on 57% shooting
17.1/12.4/2.4 on 58% shooting
18.3/12.2/1.8 on 59% shooting
15.8/10.5/1.3 on 59% shooting

18.8/13.1/2.2 on 58% shooting over all 10 years

I look at it this way--if you are making a team of the best 75 players ever, you should have 30 guards, 30 forwards, and 15 centers (with some of those G/F, F/G, F/C, and C/F). He just isn't a top 15 center all time, when accounting for generations. I mean, they only have 6 Centers that played most of their minutes over the last 30 years/after 1990 (Admiral, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, KG).

Here is the Center list (some are listed as C/F) with bolded players playing most of their minutes after 1990.

Kareem
Wilt
Cowens--probably the one I would drop if I had to drop one of these guys and replace with Howard
Duncan
Ewing
KG
Moses
Mikan
Hakeem
Shaq
Parish
Pettit--C/F
Willis Reed--C/F
Admiral
Russell
Nate Thurmond
Unseld
Walton

I just don't see him above any of those guys in the last 2 generations (1980/90s, 2000/2010s)

[Split T]

Eh. I think you need some longevity in your excellence.

5 years 1st Team all-nba isn’t enough? It’s more than Nash, Paul, Dirk, KG, Curry, Moses, Pippen, Robinson…same amount as Barkley and Dr. J

No, it’s not. It’s not all about 1st team NBA. It’s about consistently high performance over a 10 year period or more.

Here’s his numbers over a 10 year period, tell me where he faltered:

15.8/12.5/1.4 on 53% shooting
17.6/12.3/1.9 on 60% shooting
20.7/14.2/2.1 on 60% shooting
20.6/13.8/2.9 on 57% shooting
18.3/13.2/2.8 on 61% shooting
22.9/14.1/2.4 on 59% shooting
20.6/14.5/2.1 on 57% shooting
17.1/12.4/2.4 on 58% shooting
18.3/12.2/1.8 on 59% shooting
15.8/10.5/1.3 on 59% shooting

18.8/13.1/2.2 on 58% shooting over all 10 years

I look at it this way--if you are making a team of the best 75 players ever, you should have 30 guards, 30 forwards, and 15 centers (with some of those G/F, F/G, F/C, and C/F). He just isn't a top 15 center all time, when accounting for generations. I mean, they only have 6 Centers that played most of their minutes over the last 30 years/after 1990 (Admiral, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, KG).

Here is the Center list (some are listed as C/F) with bolded players playing most of their minutes after 1990.

Kareem
Wilt
Cowens--probably the one I would drop if I had to drop one of these guys and replace with Howard
Duncan
Ewing
KG
Moses
Mikan
Hakeem
Shaq
Parish
Pettit--C/F
Willis Reed--C/F
Admiral
Russell
Nate Thurmond
Unseld
Walton

I just don't see him above any of those guys in the last 2 generations (1980/90s, 2000/2010s)

Sure, that’s fair. I also don’t see him above any of those bolded guys. Honestly a big problem is they kept all the original 50 when the game was C dominated.

Cowens, Unseld, Parish…all those guys I’d put behind Dwight.

Can someone tell me what I’m missing with Unseld? I wasn’t alive, but looking at his stats he was mostly just a rebounder. How did he win the mvp in 68/69? He spent most his career averaging single digit points. Was he an elite defender?

Walton is another interesting case…if you want prolonged success, he’s definitely not your guy. He basically had 200 games of star play before turning into something very much not deserving of top 75.

Parish makes sense, he was good for a very long time. I think Howard was better at his peak than Parish at his peak though.

So no I wouldn’t put Howard in over any of the new C’s, but I’d have put him in over AD, Lillard, Westbrook, or Melo.

[AmareIsGod]

"Unseld had an immediate impact in the NBA, boosting the Bullets to a 57-25 record and first place in the Eastern Division while averaging 13.8 points and 18.2 rebounds per game. Unseld was named both Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player that season, joining Wilt Chamberlain as the only players in NBA history to accomplish that feat."

https://www.nba.com/75/player/wes-unseld-78392

It must have just been the era he played in then. Nothing about what I'm seeing, numbers wise, indicates him being even in an MVP discussion in the modern NBA.

[Split T]

On a very limited perusal of the numbers, it feels like Willis Reed probably should’ve won? Unseld was 8th in win shares that year. But best player on the best team was probably a much more common voting method in the 60’s.

[Indy]

I think one issue with the Top 75 (besides keeping the original Top 50) is the voters. Look at the voters list, and then the people that made the Top 75. Feels like the Venn diagram is like 75% overlap.

[Split T]

Oh wow, 36 of the voters are also members of the 75…ya that seems interesting…Like I have no problem with Giannis on the list at all, but weird that he’s voting. Does he vote for himself?

[Indy]

Oh wow, 36 of the voters are also members of the 75…ya that seems interesting…Like I have no problem with Giannis on the list at all, but weird that he’s voting. Does he vote for himself?

I don't know the rules. I didn't look closely, but I wonder if it includes all living MVPs.

[Shabazz]

5 years 1st Team all-nba isn’t enough? It’s more than Nash, Paul, Dirk, KG, Curry, Moses, Pippen, Robinson…same amount as Barkley and Dr. J

No, it’s not. It’s not all about 1st team NBA. It’s about consistently high performance over a 10 year period or more.

Here’s his numbers over a 10 year period, tell me where he faltered:

15.8/12.5/1.4 on 53% shooting
17.6/12.3/1.9 on 60% shooting
20.7/14.2/2.1 on 60% shooting
20.6/13.8/2.9 on 57% shooting
18.3/13.2/2.8 on 61% shooting
22.9/14.1/2.4 on 59% shooting
20.6/14.5/2.1 on 57% shooting
17.1/12.4/2.4 on 58% shooting
18.3/12.2/1.8 on 59% shooting
15.8/10.5/1.3 on 59% shooting

18.8/13.1/2.2 on 58% shooting over all 10 years

I look at it this way--if you are making a team of the best 75 players ever, you should have 30 guards, 30 forwards, and 15 centers (with some of those G/F, F/G, F/C, and C/F). He just isn't a top 15 center all time, when accounting for generations. I mean, they only have 6 Centers that played most of their minutes over the last 30 years/after 1990 (Admiral, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, KG).

Here is the Center list (some are listed as C/F) with bolded players playing most of their minutes after 1990.

Kareem
Wilt
Cowens--probably the one I would drop if I had to drop one of these guys and replace with Howard
Duncan
Ewing
KG
Moses
Mikan
Hakeem
Shaq
Parish
Pettit--C/F
Willis Reed--C/F
Admiral
Russell
Nate Thurmond
Unseld
Walton

I just don't see him above any of those guys in the last 2 generations (1980/90s, 2000/2010s)

Sure, that’s fair. I also don’t see him above any of those bolded guys. Honestly a big problem is they kept all the original 50 when the game was C dominated.

Cowens, Unseld, Parish…all those guys I’d put behind Dwight.

Can someone tell me what I’m missing with Unseld? I wasn’t alive, but looking at his stats he was mostly just a rebounder. How did he win the mvp in 68/69? He spent most his career averaging single digit points. Was he an elite defender?

Walton is another interesting case…if you want prolonged success, he’s definitely not your guy. He basically had 200 games of star play before turning into something very much not deserving of top 75.

Parish makes sense, he was good for a very long time. I think Howard was better at his peak than Parish at his peak though.

So no I wouldn’t put Howard in over any of the new C’s, but I’d have put him in over AD, Lillard, Westbrook, or Melo.

If Dwight Howard played with Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, etc. he would have been on the top-30 list, not the top 75. Howard is penalized because he's one of the least likeable/phoniest dudes ever. It may have been a product of his era, but Dwight was pretty dominant at his peak on both-ends and needed to be schemed for.

Like whom?

I was going to say Walton, too. He was definitely better at his peak than Dwight and absolutely deserves to be on the list, but his peak was like 3 barely-healthy seasons.

[Split T]

Oh wow, 36 of the voters are also members of the 75…ya that seems interesting…Like I have no problem with Giannis on the list at all, but weird that he’s voting. Does he vote for himself?

I don't know the rules. I didn't look closely, but I wonder if it includes all living MVPs.

Rose wasn’t a voter, so not all

[Split T]

I’m not the only one thinking about it

The value-question is a tough one to answer. LeBron is undoubtedly one of the five best players in the league (and of all-time), but he's also 37 years old and comes with an internal power shift that you better be ready for. How many teams have the ecosystem for LeBron, a roster with good enough pieces to talk the Lakers into and a remaining cast that LeBron could compete with post-trade?

Not very many.

The first team that came to mind was the Phoenix Suns.

They're the best team in the league right now, and have a trio of young pieces — Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson and the oddly-wasn't-given-a-max Deandre Ayton — they could theoretically move in the summer for LeBron. Between Ayton's max in a sign-and-trade, Bridges' extension kicking in and Johnson's team option, the Suns could easily get to north of $40 mililion in salary to make it work.

(There could be some haggling for Johnson. The Suns do have all their picks from 2023 and onward, so maybe they could sub in a first or two down the road in an effort to keep him out of the trade.)

What's left? A trio of Chris Paul (happens to be one of LeBron's best friends), Devin Booker and LeBron. The playmaking and general IQ of the Paul/LeBron convo would make an already-elite half-court attack more difficult to deal with. Even this stage of LeBron would help solve the rim pressure issue; the Suns have ranked last in rim frequency in both seasons of the Paul era, per Cleaning The Glass.

For the record I would not consider Bridges in any sort of LeBron trade.

[specialsauce]

I would not consider lebron in any sort of lebron trade involving the Suns.

HARD PASS.

[Split T]

I would not consider lebron in any sort of lebron trade involving the Suns.

HARD PASS.

A lot of people said that about CP3 too

[Indy]

I would not consider lebron in any sort of lebron trade involving the Suns.

HARD PASS.

A lot of people said that about CP3 too

Including almost everyone on this site.

[Split T]

I’m just trying to prepare you guys…once the season starts up again I won’t mention it, but I won’t be surprised if it’s an option for us this summer

[wpmiller42]

Why would we trade for LeBron. I'm actually a big LeBron fan, but why trade for him when we could just sign him outright after next year? Plus, there's no reason to help the lakers by trading good players for him. I just don't see why we really have to give up anything if he really wants to be here.

[Split T]

Why would we trade for LeBron. I'm actually a big LeBron fan, but why trade for him when we could just sign him outright after next year? Plus, there's no reason to help the lakers by trading good players for him. I just don't see why we really have to give up anything if he really wants to be here.

Because he’ll be 38 and CP3 will be 37. You don’t waste a year waiting for free agency as they’ll be 39 and 38. We also won’t have cap space to sign him outright. Got to give up salary and if he’s being traded, other teams will make offers. Lakers have no reason to just take the suns offer, so we’d have to make it competitive. To me Ayton/filler/picks is a no brainer. If Johnson and or Bridges come into play it gets less appealing. I’d have to wait and see how the postseason goes before deciding what I’d be willing to do.

[specialsauce]

Hell no. I am not trading any of our talent for that guy. He is a poison to every organization he joins. 5 years ago I would have said absolutely. Not now. Not breaking this team up for THAT. No no no. This is entirely different than Cp3 for whom we gave up next to nothing and he blended into our team rather than making it about himself