Around the League: Week 19 (2/21 to 2/27)

[Superbone]

Zion Williamson ripped by former New Orleans Pelicans teammate JJ Redick for not being a better teammate
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/333 ... r-teammate

At this point, is it still even a debate around here about whether you'd rather have Zion or Ayton? I couldn't believe the argument then, when he was always hurt and fat as hell to now, with all of this coming out.

Anyone here still care to argue in favor of Zion? I remember having debates all the time about Porziņģis as well and his durability. Look how that's played out.

I was jealous when he first came out the year after but not any more!

[bajanguy008]

[bajanguy008]

[Mori Chu]

If Murray can get healthy, the Nuggets are going to absolutely destroy the Jazz or Mavs or somebody in a 3-6 or 4-5 series. The really interesting question is, if the Grizz stay at #3 and the Nugs at #6, and the Nugs get Murray back, who wins that matchup? Grizz have had a way better season, but would you bet against Jokic and Murray back together? Could be a warm playoff welcome for Ja and the young Grizz.

[Indy]

I would take the Nuggets in that series.

[bajanguy008]

Another one for my Rankings Debate friends on here
You guys have fun

[Split T]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

[Indy]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

I disagree with #1. I think you can make a strong argument for any of MJ, Lebron, or Kareem as the best ever basketball player.

I would agree that Magic doesn't belong in that conversation, though.

[Split T]

What would be your Kareem argument? Not saying your wrong, just hard for me to see it.

Magic and Kareem are hard to compare. They won 5 titles together and while Magic was the better player for most of their time together, that’s not entirely fair as their primes didn’t match up. Kareem was past his prime almost their entire time.

I wasn’t alive and have no context for Kareem’s time before Magic, but why did he only win 1 title as clearly the best player in the 70’s? Fair or not, I do question the stats he put up before the merger. I don’t trust the quality of play back that far.

Magic was a top 3 player in the world for 9 straight years. He retired at 31 as the 2nd best player in the world. If Magic doesn’t get HIV and keeps playing, I do wonder what the next 4 years looks like for him. He had 5 titles, 3 finals MVP’s and 3 regular season MVP’s by age 30. He finished 2nd in the mvp race the year he retired. He was still very much in his prime and I think we missed out on a few more Magic vs MJ at the top of their game years.

You can’t credit him with things he didn’t do though and Kareem played forever. Still, without Magic, there’s no way Kareem gets to 6 titles. LeBron and Jordan were unquestionably the best player on their title teams and were always the best players on their teams up until they retired. Kareem spent almost 10 years playing with someone better than him.

To me it’d be like if Giannis joined LeBron in 2015 and they played the next 10 years together. They would have cranked out 4 or 5 titles and LeBron would finish at 7 or 8 titles. Again it’s a hypothetical and I guess I’m just saying I don’t view the Kareem 6 titles the same way I view Jordan’s 6 or even LeBron’s 4.

[Indy]

I mean the guy won 6 MVPs, and finished top 3 in MVP three more times. And keep in mind that back when he was winning these, the MVP was awarded by the players. They couldn't vote for themselves or any teammate, and Kareem ended on top more than anyone in that time. He finished 3rd in voting his rookie year.

As to why he didn't win more championships, I don't know. He did lose Oscar Roberston as a teammate in 74 (which led to Kareem being the only guy ever to win an MVP when his team didn't even make the playoffs). I put a lot of stock in how a guy is seen amongst his peers.

[The Bobster]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

I disagree with #1. I think you can make a strong argument for any of MJ, Lebron, or Kareem as the best ever basketball player.

I would agree that Magic doesn't belong in that conversation, though.

I would swap Magic and Wilt.

Also, for being a Hall of Famer, MVP, and two-time champion Dave Cowens never gets any respect in these things.

[Split T]

6 MVP’s, but 4 won before the merger. Again it may not be fair, but it feels like the league was watered down. It feels like Julius Irving was probably the only one who could compete with Kareem as best player on the planet, at the time, and he was playing in a different league.

To me it’s this, if you split his career into 2:

Before Magic(10 years):
5 MVP’s, 1 Title, 1 FMVP, 6 1st Team All-NBA

With Magic(10 years):
1 MVP, 5 Titles, 1 FMVP, 4 1st Team All-NBA

Stats before Magic:
28.6 pts, 14.8 reb, 4.5 ast, 3.5 blk, 1.3 stl .583 TS .266 WS/48 8.3 BPM

Stats with Magic:
20.6 pts, 7.6 reb, 2.8 ast, 2.0 blk, .7 stl, .606 TS .182 WS/48
4.0 BPM

It’s just hard for me to not think he hugely benefited by being Scottie Pippen the last half of his career. If Magic never comes, Kareem might’ve finished with 1 title.

So to me, best years pre merger in a watered down league combined with winning almost all his titles as the 2nd best player on his team keeps him out of the top tier.

For the record, I do have him 3rd, but I think he’s closer to Magic/Bird than to Jordan/LeBron.

[Split T]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

I disagree with #1. I think you can make a strong argument for any of MJ, Lebron, or Kareem as the best ever basketball player.

I would agree that Magic doesn't belong in that conversation, though.

I would swap Magic and Wilt.

Also, for being a Hall of Famer, MVP, and two-time champion Dave Cowens never gets any respect in these things.

I have a hard time understanding how he won MVP:

Cowens was 20.5 pts, 16.2 reb, 4.1 ast and shot 45%
Kareem was 30.2 pts, 16.1 reb, 5.0 ast and shot 55%

I guess it was the 68 wins, although Milwaukee won 60. Stats aren’t close enough for me to care about 8 wins.

[The Bobster]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

Elgin Baylor - 27.4 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 11 All-Star Games, 10x 1st Team All-NBA, finished in the top 5 of the MVP voting 7 times, easily the best forward in the league in the 1960s.

I'm certainly not moving him down, I'm inclined to move him up.

[The Bobster]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

I disagree with #1. I think you can make a strong argument for any of MJ, Lebron, or Kareem as the best ever basketball player.

I would agree that Magic doesn't belong in that conversation, though.

I would swap Magic and Wilt.

Also, for being a Hall of Famer, MVP, and two-time champion Dave Cowens never gets any respect in these things.

I have a hard time understanding how he won MVP:

Cowens was 20.5 pts, 16.2 reb, 4.1 ast and shot 45%
Kareem was 30.2 pts, 16.1 reb, 5.0 ast and shot 55%

I guess it was the 68 wins, although Milwaukee won 60. Stats aren’t close enough for me to care about 8 wins.

Boston was 68-14 that year, tied for the second most wins in NBA history up to that point (tied with the 66-67 76ers behind the 71-72 Lakers).

Certainly falls into that "best player on best team" line of thinking.

[Split T]

My biggest issues

1. Magic and Kareem should not be on the same tier as Jordan and LeBron
2. Move Wade, Isiah, and Baylor down to tier 5 and combine tiers 3 and 4

Elgin Baylor - 27.4 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 11 All-Star Games, 10x 1st Team All-NBA, finished in the top 5 of the MVP voting 7 times, easily the best forward in the league in the 1960s.

I'm certainly not moving him down, I'm inclined to move him up.

No titles, no MVP’s. Feels more CP3/Stockton than it does KG/Olajuwon/Curry/Durant

[Mori Chu]

IMO Bill Russell belongs in the top Tier 1. Just an insane amount of team and individual success in his career.

[The Bobster]

6 MVP’s, but 4 won before the merger. Again it may not be fair, but it feels like the league was watered down. It feels like Julius Irving was probably the only one who could compete with Kareem as best player on the planet, at the time, and he was playing in a different league.

To me it’s this, if you split his career into 2:

Before Magic(10 years):
5 MVP’s, 1 Title, 1 FMVP, 6 1st Team All-NBA

With Magic(10 years):
1 MVP, 5 Titles, 1 FMVP, 4 1st Team All-NBA

Stats before Magic:
28.6 pts, 14.8 reb, 4.5 ast, 3.5 blk, 1.3 stl .583 TS .266 WS/48 8.3 BPM

Stats with Magic:
20.6 pts, 7.6 reb, 2.8 ast, 2.0 blk, .7 stl, .606 TS .182 WS/48
4.0 BPM

It’s just hard for me to not think he hugely benefited by being Scottie Pippen the last half of his career. If Magic never comes, Kareem might’ve finished with 1 title.

So to me, best years pre merger in a watered down league combined with winning almost all his titles as the 2nd best player on his team keeps him out of the top tier.

For the record, I do have him 3rd, but I think he’s closer to Magic/Bird than to Jordan/LeBron.

Those "stats with Magic" also include three years at the end of his career when Kareem was past his prime and they were just re-signing him because they kept winning.

Kareem (as much as I despised him as a player) was clearly the best player of the 70s. By a wide margin.

[Split T]

Fair, but if you take out the last 3 years, you lose 2 titles.

[Split T]

IMO Bill Russell belongs in the top Tier 1. Just an insane amount of team and individual success in his career.

How do you account for him playing most of his career in a league that had 8-9 teams. He was 3 times as likely to win a title just by sheer number of teams. He also played on absolutely stacked teams. It’s just too hard to compare what Russell did to anything done by more recent players.