'21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

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Indy
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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Indy »

The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
He is the leading rebounder for the entire series across both teams. Pretty crazy to see him do that.

But to your real point, no he isn't going to do that. But creating shots for yourself and others is the most valuable skillset in the NBA.
Last edited by Indy on Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Reference my initial post about Game 5. The difference in these games and in most Finals games is which team can best convert at the rim.

It's really a simple game when it gets down to winning time.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:43 am
That's a pretty crazy streak. Who is likely to ever go that long with no missed 3s?
It has ruined his legacy, frankly.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:08 pm
I'm old enough to remember when everyone called Wiggins a bust of a #1 pick and people said he shouldn't get a max extension and T-Wolves fans wanted to dump him. Be careful what you wish for.
Are you hinting at something here, Jeremy? :P
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:39 pm
Wiggins has been fantastic for the Warriors this series. Man he would look great as our starting 4.
Yeah, you've got to give it up for them. Turning Russell into Wiggins and then getting this kind of production out of him was a masterstroke.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:55 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:08 pm
I'm old enough to remember when everyone called Wiggins a bust of a #1 pick and people said he shouldn't get a max extension and T-Wolves fans wanted to dump him. Be careful what you wish for.
Old is when you remember his dad getting kicked out of the league.
Since we're the same age, I should remember that but to be honest, I didn't even remember that his dad played in the league.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by specialsauce »

Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:43 am
That's a pretty crazy streak. Who is likely to ever go that long with no missed 3s?
It has ruined his legacy, frankly.
Mori is all about Stephs LeggAssy

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Split T »

The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Mori Chu »

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:43 am
That's a pretty crazy streak. Who is likely to ever go that long with no missed 3s?
It has ruined his legacy, frankly.
Mori is all about Stephs LeggAssy
When Stephy makes the "putting the baby to bed" gesture at the end of games, I imagine that I am the baby and he is putting ME to bed, hnnnnnngggggh (sounds of male ecstasy)

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by The Bobster »

Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:17 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:55 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:08 pm
I'm old enough to remember when everyone called Wiggins a bust of a #1 pick and people said he shouldn't get a max extension and T-Wolves fans wanted to dump him. Be careful what you wish for.
Old is when you remember his dad getting kicked out of the league.
Since we're the same age, I should remember that but to be honest, I didn't even remember that his dad played in the league.
Mitchell Wiggins (and teammate Lewis Lloyd) were early casualties of the league's drug policy in 1987.
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Superbone
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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:31 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:43 am
That's a pretty crazy streak. Who is likely to ever go that long with no missed 3s?
It has ruined his legacy, frankly.
Mori is all about Stephs LeggAssy
When Stephy makes the "putting the baby to bed" gesture at the end of games, I imagine that I am the baby and he is putting ME to bed, hnnnnnngggggh (sounds of male ecstasy)
We know!
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.
So? Sarver owes it to us to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees. Why aren’t we demanding he do it instead of calling for Ayton to be traded?

And your argument that Ayton is already better than a max player has become is supposed to hurt my position how exactly? We already know we can get great games in the Finals from DA, at a much younger age than Wiggins. The man had 22 points and 19 rebounds in his first ever Finals game at the age of 22 freaking years old, for goodness sakes!

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by JeremyG »

It still seems unreal to me that they are going to get rid of their first and only #1 pick, who is actually a great player, just because they don’t want to pay him what he’s worth.

(And before anyone says he’s not worth what he’s worth, his objective worth is determined by what teams are willing to pay him, which is a max contract. That’s his fair market value.)

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Superbone »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:03 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.
So? Sarver owes it to us to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees. Why aren’t we demanding he do it instead of calling for Ayton to be traded?

And your argument that Ayton is already better than a max player has become is supposed to hurt my position how exactly? We already know we can get great games in the Finals from DA, at a much younger age than Wiggins. The man had 22 points and 19 rebounds in his first ever Finals game at the age of 22 freaking years old, for goodness sakes!
Because this is real life and it's not going to happen. Sarver doesn't have the pocketbooks of the Warriors and it's unrealistic to think he can and will spend like them.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

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"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:03 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.
So? Sarver owes it to us to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees. Why aren’t we demanding he do it instead of calling for Ayton to be traded?

And your argument that Ayton is already better than a max player has become is supposed to hurt my position how exactly? We already know we can get great games in the Finals from DA, at a much younger age than Wiggins. The man had 22 points and 19 rebounds in his first ever Finals game at the age of 22 freaking years old, for goodness sakes!
I think your position is wrong because you’re talking up Wiggins like he’s some example of success. He’s not. He had one of the 5 worst contracts in basketball until this year. Now it’s just a regular bad contract. You don’t max someone because they had a good finals game.

My point is I wouldn’t want Wiggins at the max. Even now that he’s shown usefulness. I would rather have Ayton at the max. That doesn’t mean I’d want either, but given a choice I’d take Ayton for sure.

As for Sarver. It’s pointless to pretend he might change and be willing to pay crazy luxury tax fees. If he’s willing to and still add more salary to get a 3rd creator, I’d be perfectly fine maxing Ayton.

So for the record, I’d be all for maxing Ayton, as long as we also upgraded Crowder to Barnes or Grant and then upgraded Shamet/Payne to Eric Gordon. Or similar upgrades, while also paying Cam J and not losing CP3, Book, or Mikal.

Sign me up for

Paul/Booker/Bridges/Grant/Ayton with
Holiday/Gordon/CamJ/Wainright/Saric off the bench.

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Indy
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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Indy »

It is an unserious question to ask why the ownership group won't pay 50M extra for a season. I mean, do the Suns even make 50M in profit each season?

Their revenue is in the 250M range, and just player salaries were 135M alone, not counting coaches, trainers, or any other staff. I have no idea what their operating costs are for the area or the cost of the training facility and arena improvements. I highly doubt they even have 50M in profits.

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I don't have much sympathy for the annual profit argument when the value of these franchises increases every year.

What about the TV rights deal that brings in $2.66B annually for the league? How much of that do teams get?
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Indy
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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:41 pm
I don't have much sympathy for the annual profit argument when the value of these franchises increases every year.

What about the TV rights deal that brings in $2.66B annually for the league? How much of that do teams get?
I am pretty sure that is included in their annual revenue. Like their biggest chunk. I thought it was split evenly? Or am I wrong about that?

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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:03 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
If we're bringing Ayton into this (because why not?), Wiggins has been consistently beating his man off of the dribble and finishing at the rim this series.

Will Ayton ever be able to do that?
Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.
So? Sarver owes it to us to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees. Why aren’t we demanding he do it instead of calling for Ayton to be traded?

And your argument that Ayton is already better than a max player has become is supposed to hurt my position how exactly? We already know we can get great games in the Finals from DA, at a much younger age than Wiggins. The man had 22 points and 19 rebounds in his first ever Finals game at the age of 22 freaking years old, for goodness sakes!
I think your position is wrong because you’re talking up Wiggins like he’s some example of success. He’s not. He had one of the 5 worst contracts in basketball until this year. Now it’s just a regular bad contract. You don’t max someone because they had a good finals game.

My point is I wouldn’t want Wiggins at the max. Even now that he’s shown usefulness. I would rather have Ayton at the max. That doesn’t mean I’d want either, but given a choice I’d take Ayton for sure.

As for Sarver. It’s pointless to pretend he might change and be willing to pay crazy luxury tax fees. If he’s willing to and still add more salary to get a 3rd creator, I’d be perfectly fine maxing Ayton.

So for the record, I’d be all for maxing Ayton, as long as we also upgraded Crowder to Barnes or Grant and then upgraded Shamet/Payne to Eric Gordon. Or similar upgrades, while also paying Cam J and not losing CP3, Book, or Mikal.

Sign me up for

Paul/Booker/Bridges/Grant/Ayton with
Holiday/Gordon/CamJ/Wainright/Saric off the bench.
Sign me up for it, too! (Finally we agree! Lol)

I don’t think Wiggins is a bad contract, especially for the Warriors. If he’s helping them win a championship, then it’s a great contract.

Same with Ayton. If you have to pay him the max, even if you don’t consider him to be a max player, in order to keep the team together and keep your young core and compete for championships for years to come, then it’s not a bad contract. Both Sarver and Jones have claimed that the luxury tax is not a concern. Let them put their money where their mouth is.

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specialsauce
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Re: '21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

Post by specialsauce »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:15 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:10 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:03 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:19 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm


Will Wiggins ever average 10 rebounds a game? Or shoot 60% in a season? (okay, how about 50%?)

Why are we comparing a 6'7" small forward to a 7' center?
Because JeremyG pointed out they are both former 1st overall picks that a lot of people didn’t think were worth the max.

Problem is Wiggins spent most of his max contract being considered one of the worst contracts in basketball. He’s now providing positive play, but he’s going into the last year of the deal.

I don’t think it’s a good comparison because it took until the 4th year of his max contract before he was actually useful. Also Minny had to attach a pick to him to move him. Also, he was a much worse player than Ayton is right now.

Yes Wiggins is showing that players can find a way to contribute later in their careers, but that’s never been the problem with Ayton. Nobody doubts that. We all know he can contribute, it’s about what he’s contributing. Right now what this team needs most is more on ball creation. Paying Ayton 30 million a year makes finding on ball creation very difficult.

It’s also important to point out that the Warriors willingness to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees is a huge part of this. Wiggins costs them a ton and they are willing to pay for that luxury. The suns could conceivably pay Ayton 30 million a year to be a 4th option, but Sarver would have to be willing to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees.

All this is to say, that I don’t think there’s a good comparison to be made about the Wiggins situation and the Ayton situation.
So? Sarver owes it to us to pay ridiculous luxury tax fees. Why aren’t we demanding he do it instead of calling for Ayton to be traded?

And your argument that Ayton is already better than a max player has become is supposed to hurt my position how exactly? We already know we can get great games in the Finals from DA, at a much younger age than Wiggins. The man had 22 points and 19 rebounds in his first ever Finals game at the age of 22 freaking years old, for goodness sakes!
I think your position is wrong because you’re talking up Wiggins like he’s some example of success. He’s not. He had one of the 5 worst contracts in basketball until this year. Now it’s just a regular bad contract. You don’t max someone because they had a good finals game.

My point is I wouldn’t want Wiggins at the max. Even now that he’s shown usefulness. I would rather have Ayton at the max. That doesn’t mean I’d want either, but given a choice I’d take Ayton for sure.

As for Sarver. It’s pointless to pretend he might change and be willing to pay crazy luxury tax fees. If he’s willing to and still add more salary to get a 3rd creator, I’d be perfectly fine maxing Ayton.

So for the record, I’d be all for maxing Ayton, as long as we also upgraded Crowder to Barnes or Grant and then upgraded Shamet/Payne to Eric Gordon. Or similar upgrades, while also paying Cam J and not losing CP3, Book, or Mikal.

Sign me up for

Paul/Booker/Bridges/Grant/Ayton with
Holiday/Gordon/CamJ/Wainright/Saric off the bench.
Sign me up for it, too! (Finally we agree! Lol)

I don’t think Wiggins is a bad contract, especially for the Warriors. If he’s helping them win a championship, then it’s a great contract.

Same with Ayton. If you have to pay him the max, even if you don’t consider him to be a max player, in order to keep the team together and keep your young core and compete for championships for years to come, then it’s not a bad contract. Both Sarver and Jones have claimed that the luxury tax is not a concern. Let them put their money where their mouth is.
Oh yeah I like that

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