'21-'22 NBA Playoffs Games/Series

[Split T]

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

I support keeping Ayton. For me it's more about options and cost/benefit. I don't think we will be a better team with, say, Myles Turner and a pick. I don't think we will be better with Clint Capela. I think Ayton is still going to get better and is close to being a really dominant center. I love his defense and I love his high fg% and I think in his prime he can be the 2nd best guy on a title team. I'd rather bet on that than trade him for a puu-puu platter just because we're too cheap to pay him.

For me it’s about the $12 million difference between Ayton and Turner. I’d rather spend 18 on Turner…and honestly he might get cheaper after next year…and use the extra $12-15 million to fill other holes on the roster. I just don’t think Ayton is doing enough for us to make up that difference. He’s not as bad as some other high salary bigs at being played off the court, but he didn’t make Dallas pay for going small. That’s really his biggest appeal was that he supposedly is a true big that can’t be played off the floor and would punish teams that went small. He showed us that at times, but he didn’t against Dallas when we needed him the most.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Ayton’s value on a max deal is great option wise. Even though I’m kinda our on him, I think Book knows he needs a real bucket getter as a postseason partner. Hopefully the tampering going around right now, JJ is sniffing out whether it’s worth signing him vs sign n trade. I doubt they’ll let him go sign offer as it limits our ability to trade him. And no way they let him walk.

I had this same opinion until recently.

If Ayton signs a max contract, it'll instantly be one of the worst in the league for two reasons. The first is he'll be getting paid for potential upside more so than what he's proven. Also, most of the league has the opinion that it's nearly impossible to win a title with a max-contract Center who's not a superstar, so he's not going to fetch talent that accurately matches the salary. For example, the Suns wouldn't be able to trade him for a package like the one the Lakers sent New Orleans for Anthony Davis. It would be more likely they'd take on a shorter bad contract and one or two young assets.

[Drewsprocket]

Ayton’s value on a max deal is great option wise. Even though I’m kinda our on him, I think Book knows he needs a real bucket getter as a postseason partner. Hopefully the tampering going around right now, JJ is sniffing out whether it’s worth signing him vs sign n trade. I doubt they’ll let him go sign offer as it limits our ability to trade him. And no way they let him walk.

I had this same opinion until recently.

If Ayton signs a max contract, it'll instantly be one of the worst in the league for two reasons. The first is he'll be getting paid for potential upside more so than what he's proven. Also, most of the league has the opinion that it's nearly impossible to win a title with a max-contract Center who's not a superstar, so he's not going to fetch talent that accurately matches the salary. For example, the Suns wouldn't be able to trade him for a package like the one the Lakers sent New Orleans for Anthony Davis. It would be more likely they'd take on a shorter bad contract and one or two young assets.

I think you could be right. But it feels like there’s a market for him at any price. I sure as shit don’t want him next post season. We will see what happens. It’s hard to see who’s leaking what right now, there’s enough dirt on Ayton who knows where that’s coming from?

[ShadowHawke]

How good would Ayton be without Chris Paul? How much is his offensive improvement for the last two seasons due to his own development versus benefitting from a point guard who can get him the ball is the most advantageous way possible?

[SunsRIt]

How good would Ayton be without Chris Paul? How much is his offensive improvement for the last two seasons due to his own development versus benefitting from a point guard who can get him the ball is the most advantageous way possible?

It’s funny you ask that question. Ayton averaged more points and rebounds per game before Chris Paul came to town.

[Wally_West]

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

I support keeping Ayton. For me it's more about options and cost/benefit. I don't think we will be a better team with, say, Myles Turner and a pick. I don't think we will be better with Clint Capela. I think Ayton is still going to get better and is close to being a really dominant center. I love his defense and I love his high fg% and I think in his prime he can be the 2nd best guy on a title team. I'd rather bet on that than trade him for a puu-puu platter just because we're too cheap to pay him.

For me it’s about the $12 million difference between Ayton and Turner. I’d rather spend 18 on Turner…and honestly he might get cheaper after next year…and use the extra $12-15 million to fill other holes on the roster. I just don’t think Ayton is doing enough for us to make up that difference. He’s not as bad as some other high salary bigs at being played off the court, but he didn’t make Dallas pay for going small. That’s really his biggest appeal was that he supposedly is a true big that can’t be played off the floor and would punish teams that went small. He showed us that at times, but he didn’t against Dallas when we needed him the most.

I’m confused, wouldn’t we be over the cap regardless if we max Ayton or not? So giving Turner 18 million wouldn't mean we have 12-15 million of free money that we could spend, just means Sarver’s wallet would be happier, we still would only have the mid-level exemption to improve the roster, which we would have still if we maxed Ayton, or am I wrong? Not a cap expert. Just curious.

[Shabazz]

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

I support keeping Ayton. For me it's more about options and cost/benefit. I don't think we will be a better team with, say, Myles Turner and a pick. I don't think we will be better with Clint Capela. I think Ayton is still going to get better and is close to being a really dominant center. I love his defense and I love his high fg% and I think in his prime he can be the 2nd best guy on a title team. I'd rather bet on that than trade him for a puu-puu platter just because we're too cheap to pay him.

For me it’s about the $12 million difference between Ayton and Turner. I’d rather spend 18 on Turner…and honestly he might get cheaper after next year…and use the extra $12-15 million to fill other holes on the roster. I just don’t think Ayton is doing enough for us to make up that difference. He’s not as bad as some other high salary bigs at being played off the court, but he didn’t make Dallas pay for going small. That’s really his biggest appeal was that he supposedly is a true big that can’t be played off the floor and would punish teams that went small. He showed us that at times, but he didn’t against Dallas when we needed him the most.

Cap rules, and Robert Sarver, make it difficult to do that. So you're likely just arguing on behalf of Sarver's wallet.

[Flagrant Fowl]

How good would Ayton be without Chris Paul? How much is his offensive improvement for the last two seasons due to his own development versus benefitting from a point guard who can get him the ball is the most advantageous way possible?

It’s funny you ask that question. Ayton averaged more points and rebounds per game before Chris Paul came to town.

He averaged more points in a season when he played 38 games and the Suns won 34 of 73 total games.

If anyone thinks Chris Paul has been a reason for Ayton's slow development, they're not paying attention.

[AmareIsGod]

Great players don't have to be prodded and pushed nightly to have some fire and produce. Be aggressive.

[Wally_West]

Random question: isn’t the cap supposed to spike in a couple years due to TV money and make regular max contracts 60 million a year or some crazy shit like that?

Ayton for 30-35 million a year is gonna look like a steal.

[Flagrant Fowl]

$30-35M a year will not be a steal for a role-playing Center.

If the rumors are to be believed and we read between the lines on some of the comments, the Suns don't trust Ayton will put in the work to become their best or second best player.

[Wally_West]

$30-35M a year will not be a steal for a role-playing Center.

If the rumors are to be believed and we read between the lines on some of the comments, the Suns don't trust Ayton will put in the work to become their best or second best player.

I mean, if max contracts are going to be 60 million a year or more than 30-35M is exactly the type of money role players will be getting.

[Wally_West]

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-rumors-sal ... -deal/amp/

2025 is shaping up to be quite a lucrative year for the NBA. With the league’s current TV contract with ESPN and Turner Sports expiring that season, the NBA is aiming to triple their asking price, shooting for a nine-year, $75 billion deal that would net them $8.3 billion annually, according to CNBC’s Jabari Young (H/T Forbes’ Morten Jenson). This would mean that, if the Players’ Association elects for an all-at-once salary cap spike like they did for the previous contract (the spike that infamously gave the Golden State Warriors the ability to sign Kevin Durant), the salary cap could land at a whopping $171 million in 2025, according to Jenson’s league source. For context, the salary cap for the upcoming 2021-22 season is set at just $112 million.

What does such a spike mean for the players themselves? For starters, players whose contracts expire that offseason are going to get major pay bumps, signing absurdly massive contracts, particularly if they’re superstars. For example, Giannis Antetokounmpo would be able to opt out of the final year of his five-year, $228 million deal that summer in order to sign a new five-year, $347.1 million deal, according to Jenson. (Yes, you read that figure right.) That’s $59.85 million in the first season, topping off at $79 million in the final year after annual 8% raises.

[Flagrant Fowl]

$30-35M a year will not be a steal for a role-playing Center.

If the rumors are to be believed and we read between the lines on some of the comments, the Suns don't trust Ayton will put in the work to become their best or second best player.

I mean, if max contracts are going to be 60 million a year or more than 30-35M is exactly the type of money role players will be getting.

Alright I'm following that, but your timing is off.

All speculation about future cap increases are based on the next TV rights deal. That deal won't start until the 2025-26 NBA season, which would be the 4th year on Ayton's next contract. So I guess there's some potential for it to be a fitting salary in what's likely to be the last year of his contract, but there'd still be three seasons of his contract taking up more of the cap than his production warrants.

[Split T]

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

I support keeping Ayton. For me it's more about options and cost/benefit. I don't think we will be a better team with, say, Myles Turner and a pick. I don't think we will be better with Clint Capela. I think Ayton is still going to get better and is close to being a really dominant center. I love his defense and I love his high fg% and I think in his prime he can be the 2nd best guy on a title team. I'd rather bet on that than trade him for a puu-puu platter just because we're too cheap to pay him.

For me it’s about the $12 million difference between Ayton and Turner. I’d rather spend 18 on Turner…and honestly he might get cheaper after next year…and use the extra $12-15 million to fill other holes on the roster. I just don’t think Ayton is doing enough for us to make up that difference. He’s not as bad as some other high salary bigs at being played off the court, but he didn’t make Dallas pay for going small. That’s really his biggest appeal was that he supposedly is a true big that can’t be played off the floor and would punish teams that went small. He showed us that at times, but he didn’t against Dallas when we needed him the most.

I’m confused, wouldn’t we be over the cap regardless if we max Ayton or not? So giving Turner 18 million wouldn't mean we have 12-15 million of free money that we could spend, just means Sarver’s wallet would be happier, we still would only have the mid-level exemption to improve the roster, which we would have still if we maxed Ayton, or am I wrong? Not a cap expert. Just curious.

Yes talking strictly next season it wouldn’t matter, but with the bigger picture in mind, Ayton taking up a max slot on our team would be troublesome. It’s great and all to want us to just spend like the warriors, but Sarver will never do that. So we have to think differently. We didn’t even spend all the money we had available last year when we weren’t in the luxury tax. Also being in the luxury tax puts other restrictions on us. We get less exceptions and less money on the exceptions for free agents. We can’t acquire players via sign and trade, also the rules for salary matching get stricter.

I think we’d end up like the Lakers with 3 massive contracts and nothing but vet min and tax payer MLE contracts left. All of that and one of your top 3 guys isn’t a shot creator and you have to find a shot creator with some $5 million dollar exception. And good luck making any kind of roster moves to improve the team as you’ll have nothing but minimum and max contracts to trade with.

Simply, we’re not the Lakers or Warriors, we have to be smart with how we use our money or we’ll, funny enough, end up like the Lakers.

[JeremyG]

Nobody is going to win a championship with Ayton as their highest paid player or their #1 or #2 option.

We'll have to wait and see on that, since it hasn't been attempted.

Without Ayton, the Suns may not even make the playoffs next year and certainly won't be a top 4 seed (assuming they get typical S&T marginal value in return).

OK, but he did miss a quarter of the season (before everyone started resting the last week) and we went 17-3 in those games with minimum salary or half-MLE centers replacing him.

You misunderstood. My prediction is not based on losing Ayton alone. It's also based on Chris Paul being a year older, the team chemistry being altered, etc. It won't be the same team at all.

[JeremyG]

Nobody is going to win a championship with Ayton as their highest paid player or their #1 or #2 option.

We'll have to wait and see on that, since it hasn't been attempted.

Without Ayton, the Suns may not even make the playoffs next year and certainly won't be a top 4 seed (assuming they get typical S&T marginal value in return).

OK, but he did miss a quarter of the season (before everyone started resting the last week) and we went 17-3 in those games with minimum salary or half-MLE centers replacing him.

And where was McGee against Dallas. On the bench.

While Ayton was getting cooked.

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

Lol, I'm an ASU alumnus. I can't stand the U of A.

[JeremyG]

I don't know if it's just because we blew the first pick on him or because he played at Arizona, the Ayton supporters see so much more than he's actually shown. It's fascinating.

I support keeping Ayton. For me it's more about options and cost/benefit. I don't think we will be a better team with, say, Myles Turner and a pick. I don't think we will be better with Clint Capela. I think Ayton is still going to get better and is close to being a really dominant center. I love his defense and I love his high fg% and I think in his prime he can be the 2nd best guy on a title team. I'd rather bet on that than trade him for a puu-puu platter just because we're too cheap to pay him.

For me it’s about the $12 million difference between Ayton and Turner. I’d rather spend 18 on Turner…and honestly he might get cheaper after next year…and use the extra $12-15 million to fill other holes on the roster. I just don’t think Ayton is doing enough for us to make up that difference. He’s not as bad as some other high salary bigs at being played off the court, but he didn’t make Dallas pay for going small. That’s really his biggest appeal was that he supposedly is a true big that can’t be played off the floor and would punish teams that went small. He showed us that at times, but he didn’t against Dallas when we needed him the most.

I don't get that take. Just because he didn't play well in Game 7, when the whole team quit?

There's something wrong with 20 and 11 on 62.5% shooting in 30 minutes in a closeout game on the road? He was our best player in Game 6, by far. How about the whole rest of the team didn't show up in that game? He was also our best player in Game 1 and played great in Game 5.

[specialsauce]

You guys think that getting Turner and saving $18M means we have $18M to spend elsewhere? You’re completely lost.

We’re an over the cap team. Losing Ayton simply leaves us below the luxury tax threshold but still over the cap. We can’t just sign someone. We’ll get a $10M exception.
And the biannual. Small beans.

Losing Ayton is undoubtedly going to make our team worse. We are going to go through a losing Amare situation. Losing Barkley.

When people didn’t want to pay the guy and “waste our money” so instead we spent it on 4 guys who couldn’t fill his shoes enough. Might as well pay the guy who has actual talent.

We’re going to lose Ayton and get fucking Hedo Turkoglu, Chucky Fatkins, Warrick, and Alien Head.

[JeremyG]

Haha, you know he's right, guys. There's no realistic DA trade scenario that makes us better. So the goal is to make the team worse? How is making the team worse going to win you a championship?