NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

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Split T
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by SunsRIt »

Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.
The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.

I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Drewsprocket »

Ayton is a very good player. The team culture shaped him into a much more focused player for him to grow. But he still needs a lot. Maturity wise, I would trust Monty and JJ’s assessment of him. It’s very likely that he will never hold as much trade value as now. I still am holding onto him preventing the suns from making the playoffs for his + UA, how he can disappear in games, and thinks his lack of impacting games in other ways entitles him to more touches.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

SunsRIt wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.
The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.

I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
I think there’s a few factors:

1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.

2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.

3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by SunsRIt »

Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pm
SunsRIt wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.
The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.

I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
I think there’s a few factors:

1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.

2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.

3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.
So we’re going to let a 37 year old point guard determine the future of a 23 year old center with this team? Seems pretty short sighted.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by specialsauce »

SunsRIt wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:41 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pm
SunsRIt wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.
The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.

I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
I think there’s a few factors:

1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.

2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.

3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.
So we’re going to let a 37 year old point guard determine the future of a 23 year old center with this team? Seems pretty short sighted.
Bingo.

If you want to move off DA, okay. But better not be because of CP3.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.

Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.

Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
What makes you think we have a chance at a title?

Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.

We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Gladiator »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.

Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
What makes you think we have a chance at a title?

Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.

We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
Sadly I think this is true. We are not winning the title with this team as is, so we should make some changes. What they are is hard to say, but once you accept we need to make some changes to win a title, it’s easier to accept moving the 37yo is the right thing to do. Not easy given he did help push us into contention the past two years, but easier.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

I just don’t see how we get better by moving CP3. No team that would want him would also give up current value…they’d send future value or lesser value.

Our title chance may not be great, but it still exists.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by ShelC »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.

Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
What makes you think we have a chance at a title?

Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.

We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
He was abused because he was injured. And CP is ball dominant in terms of managing the offense and the overall game. This isn't a 37 yr old Kobe or AI taking shots away from DA.

It's also not as black and white as "CP is old and that's why we lost". We lost, moreso IMO, because we got nothing from our bench guards who couldn't step up and lighten the load, much less win us a game. Payne was a non-factor, Holiday was buried and Shamet didn't become the gunner we envisioned. Yea CP is old and gets hurt, but we were the deepest team in the league until we weren't. Payne killed it as a starter while CP was out and looked like he'd really turned a corner, then went to the bench and disappeared. If we get normal production from Payne with the occasional breakout scoring game, we're probably having a different convo. And that's not to put it on Payne either, just that a lot of things went wrong seemingly all at once.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by specialsauce »

ShelC wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 8:17 am
specialsauce wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.

Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
What makes you think we have a chance at a title?

Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.

We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
He was abused because he was injured. And CP is ball dominant in terms of managing the offense and the overall game. This isn't a 37 yr old Kobe or AI taking shots away from DA.

It's also not as black and white as "CP is old and that's why we lost". We lost, moreso IMO, because we got nothing from our bench guards who couldn't step up and lighten the load, much less win us a game. Payne was a non-factor, Holiday was buried and Shamet didn't become the gunner we envisioned. Yea CP is old and gets hurt, but we were the deepest team in the league until we weren't. Payne killed it as a starter while CP was out and looked like he'd really turned a corner, then went to the bench and disappeared. If we get normal production from Payne with the occasional breakout scoring game, we're probably having a different convo. And that's not to put it on Payne either, just that a lot of things went wrong seemingly all at once.
CP3 is old. And going to get hurt in the playoff grind every time. It’s what happens to him, it’s not an excuse it’s reality. There is no reality where he plays consistently at a high level in the playoffs

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by ShelC »

That's why you need guys to step up. Payne stepped up last year and during the regular season. Book pulled his hammy, DA stepped up. Luka was hurt and missed games in the 1st round, his teammates stepped up.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

Ya I don’t buy the CP3 stuff at all. Ya he probably won’t be 100%, but he was good enough last year to give us a chance. We need to better position the roster to lighten his creative load and give us another option if he does get hurt.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by The Bobster »

Before we think about tearing it down let's keep in mind the best records in the NBA over the last two years -

1. Suns 115-39
2. Jazz 101-53
3, 76ers 100-54
4. Bucks 97-57
5. Nuggets 95-59
6T. Grizzlies 94-60
6T. Mavericks 94-60
8. Heat 93-61
9T. Warriors 92-62
9T. Nets 92-62

When you're 14 games better than anyone else in the league over two years and are 21-14 in the postseason with a trip to the Finals, it's probably not time to start making panicky trades.

Ideally they pick up a big forward who can score some points since the Crowder/Bridges combination isn't much of an offensive threat (and they need more rebounding). At the very least perhaps it's time to move Johnson into the starting lineup.

The backup guard situation needs to be addressed too - but not to the point where you pick up someone who's going to put the team in luxury tax hell.

They also need to access their offense. Start running more plays for Ayton and push the ball up the court more for some easier baskets.

And finally, there were too many games where the effort wasn't there this year - and while you can live with it in the regular season if you're going 64-18, it wound up being their undoing in the playoffs. Monty has to step up and have them more prepared and ready to play, and the players need more accountability regarding their effort.
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by The Bobster »

Split T wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:06 am
Ya I don’t buy the CP3 stuff at all. Ya he probably won’t be 100%, but he was good enough last year to give us a chance. We need to better position the roster to lighten his creative load and give us another option if he does get hurt.
Going into the playoffs with only two dependable guards was asking for trouble. Payne's drop off after getting his new contract hurt them a lot.
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by In2ition »

The Bobster wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:09 am
Split T wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:06 am
Ya I don’t buy the CP3 stuff at all. Ya he probably won’t be 100%, but he was good enough last year to give us a chance. We need to better position the roster to lighten his creative load and give us another option if he does get hurt.
Going into the playoffs with only two dependable guards was asking for trouble. Payne's drop off after getting his new contract hurt them a lot.
Thank you!! This is probably as big of a factor and domino to the downfall in play from the end of the season and through the playoffs as anything, imo.
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Superbone »

Split T wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:06 am
Ya I don’t buy the CP3 stuff at all. Ya he probably won’t be 100%, but he was good enough last year to give us a chance. We need to better position the roster to lighten his creative load and give us another option if he does get hurt.
Agreed. We just must manage his minutes throughout the season so that he has something left for the playoffs.
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pm
SunsRIt wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
I’m convinced JeremyG is part of Ayton’s entourage haha…I applaud the commitment to him though…I’m just not gonna ever see him that way. I don’t think he can be more than a role playing center. Doesn’t have the mindset.
The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.

I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
I think there’s a few factors:

1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.

2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.

3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.
If that’s all you’ve got then I don’t even need to post anymore. You’re making the argument better than I could. If we played inside out we could have beaten the Mavs.

And Ayton is actually a very good passer. He just doesn’t get a ton of opportunities.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

When has Ayton ever showed he can be a featured player in the post? He’s not anywhere close to a guy like Embiid.

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