NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

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JeremyG
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by JeremyG »

Drewsprocket wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:38 pm
Ayton is a very good player. The team culture shaped him into a much more focused player for him to grow. But he still needs a lot. Maturity wise, I would trust Monty and JJ’s assessment of him. It’s very likely that he will never hold as much trade value as now. I still am holding onto him preventing the suns from making the playoffs for his + UA, how he can disappear in games, and thinks his lack of impacting games in other ways entitles him to more touches.
You all need to listen to Shaq more. He says that if he wasn’t getting the ball, there’s no way he was giving effort on defense. When Ayton gets involved in the scoring early, that’s when he’s at his best at being engaged in all aspects of the game. It’s just natural, especially for a big man. Even when they stop going to Ayton after the first quarter, he usually stays impactful the whole game when they go to him early.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Lol, actually it would have given us a chance to beat the Mavs and Golden State as well. Not changing it got us how far exactly???
Last edited by JeremyG on Tue May 17, 2022 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Mori Chu
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Mori Chu »


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iLLmatic
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by iLLmatic »

I just can't agree with you all about cp3. I think he's too old to handle an 82 game season and then a playoff grind. He sat 20 games or so at the end of the year and still broke down in the playoffs. This is who he is. I'd love to move on from him but we kind of screwed ourselves with that contract of his. Hopefully we can make some moves this off season to get some more playmakers besides book.

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In2ition
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by In2ition »

I also believe that Ayton needs to get involved early and throughout the game, but this isn't totally everyone else's fault. Ayton is still not great about sealing his guy and creating a target to catch the ball. He is still hit or miss on passes to him. Too many times he lets the guy behind him get their hand on tipping the ball out. Too many times, he fumbles the pass. Too many times he gets stripped while having the ball. Too many times he throws up off balance panic shots. He has a great touch, but I think he is afraid of the physicality of going to the rim, creating and powering through contact, and might actually be afraid of the rim a bit.
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Split T
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:45 am
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Lol, actually it would have given us a chance to beat the Mavs and Golden State as well. Not changing it got us how far exactly???
Ayton has never shown the ability to be a featured post player…you think he’s just gonna lead us to the finals if we go to him? He had Spencer freakin Dinwiddie on him and couldn’t score…He’s talented but my goodness he needs to learn how to play with force. We’ve been saying it for 4 years now with no change. I applaud him on his midrange improvements and his floater range shots, but he’s still completely dependent on Paul and Booker to get him the ball in position. I’ll be happy to get him off the team just so we can stop talking about him.

Did you know his free throw rate has gone down? He came into the league as a terrible foul drawer and he’s somehow gotten worse.

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Mori Chu
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Mori Chu »

Matt Barnes responds to Pat Bev's stupid comments about CP3.


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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:54 am
JeremyG wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:45 am
Split T wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm
We have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Lol, actually it would have given us a chance to beat the Mavs and Golden State as well. Not changing it got us how far exactly???
Ayton has never shown the ability to be a featured post player…you think he’s just gonna lead us to the finals if we go to him?
It worked in game 1, and then we went away from what worked. In game 1, I thought maybe Monty had finally gotten smart. Too bad he didn’t actually make it the game plan. Game 1 proved that we could win with Ayton as our leading scorer and shot-taker, and you think we couldn’t have won with him as our 2nd option?

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Split T
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

He wasn’t being featured in the post, he was getting passes off his rolls to the rim…there’s a big difference

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 11:03 am
He wasn’t being featured in the post, he was getting passes off his rolls to the rim…there’s a big difference
Ugh...do I have to do this again, where I go through each play?

Game 1 Ayton field goal attempts:

#1: Post up and missed turnaournd fadeaway baseline jumper: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... t&sct=plot

#2: Post up at the free throw line, backs his defender down to the restricted line, misses hook shot that he almost always makes in the center of the lane: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... ook%20Shot

#3: Semi-roll layup for an And-1: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 203%20AST)

#4: Slips behind the defender to get a pass for a dunk: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 202%20AST)

#5: Dump to Ayton in the high post for a made turnaround baseline jumper: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 0(7%20PTS)

#6: Dump to Ayton in the low post, made turnaround jumper/hook: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 201%20AST)

#7: Pick-and-roll with Payne to the top of the paint for a made floater: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 202%20AST)

#8: Missed floater in the lane: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... t&sct=plot

#9: Made turnaround hook shot off a pick-and-roll: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 201%20AST)

#10: Made baseline jumper (no roll): https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 202%20AST)

#11: Alley oop dunk after a handoff to Booker: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... )&sct=plot

#12: Made 18-foot jumper from the top of the key: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... (19%20PTS)

#13: Alley oop dunk rolling to the rim: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 206%20AST)

#14: Offensive rebound for a made turnaround jumper: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... )&sct=plot

#15: Dump to Ayton in the low post for a made turnaround hook shot: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... 203%20AST)

#16: Dump to Ayton in the post for a missed turnaround jumper: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... way%20Shot

#17: Catch and shoot missed layup in traffic: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... se%20Layup

#18: Missed putback: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... ook%20Shot

#19: Post up at the top of the paint, missed turnaround jumper: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... ump%20Shot

#20: Missed tip after Booker missed layup: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID= ... t&sct=plot

At most, that's 6 or 7 out of his 20 field goal attempts that could be called "rolls" at all.

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Split T
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Split T »

I counted 11/15 on plays where the shot was created for him and 1/5 when he created the shot. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for featuring him.

And the 1 was created by getting an offensive rebound.

Credit him for getting good position at times off ball, but he’s essentially a catch and shoot guy, even in the post. He doesn’t create position well once he has the ball. That’s my issue. I know he’s an efficient scorer when he gets the ball where he’s comfortable. The problem is getting him the ball where he’s comfortable. It’s fair to criticize the ball handlers at times for not getting it to him, but Ayton needs to be more aggressive. Sometimes you give him the ball and has nobody on him and just stands there. He’s got poor instincts and is too passive. But I’m done with the conversation, we disagree, it’s fine.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Drewsprocket »

JeremyG wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:41 am
Drewsprocket wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:38 pm
Ayton is a very good player. The team culture shaped him into a much more focused player for him to grow. But he still needs a lot. Maturity wise, I would trust Monty and JJ’s assessment of him. It’s very likely that he will never hold as much trade value as now. I still am holding onto him preventing the suns from making the playoffs for his + UA, how he can disappear in games, and thinks his lack of impacting games in other ways entitles him to more touches.
You all need to listen to Shaq more. He says that if he wasn’t getting the ball, there’s no way he was giving effort on defense. When Ayton gets involved in the scoring early, that’s when he’s at his best at being engaged in all aspects of the game. It’s just natural, especially for a big man. Even when they stop going to Ayton after the first quarter, he usually stays impactful the whole game when they go to him early.
Fair point. Too bad Ayton isn’t Shaq. Imagine how dumb you’d have to be to not feed someone as powerful, aggressive, and fast as Shaq was against his opponents. But I hear what you mean. Sounds like a paradox for Ayton: his teammates don’t get him involved enough because he doesn’t try hard and he doesn’t want to try as hard either.

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Superbone
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Superbone »

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:45 am
Would have been spot on if he would have yelled at Ayton to "DUNK THE BALL!" rather than "make a layup."
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Wally_West »

**NSFW language**

:lol: :cry:


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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Is anyone else a bit surprised we haven't heard more about what the fuck happened in Game 7 from the team? How long is it going to take? It's been almost a week. Maybe that's a benefit of playing in Phoenix? :lol:

Will one of these guys have to change teams for them to talk about it?
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by BigLewy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:22 am
Is anyone else a bit surprised we haven't heard more about what the fuck happened in Game 7 from the team? How long is it going to take? It's been almost a week. Maybe that's a benefit of playing in Phoenix? :lol:

Will one of these guys have to change teams for them to talk about it?
There was this little nugget buried in an article from Bickley. Interesting, and I can see there being some truth to it and it taking the wind out of the team's sails.

https://arizonasports.com/story/3147051 ... -collapse/

Especially when a team with elite chemistry and depth had very little of either at the bitter end, a team where a genteel servant-leader, Monty Williams, engaged in a very public display of mutual dissatisfaction with Deandre Ayton, and according to multiple sources, had something of a fallout with veteran leader Chris Paul.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by The Bobster »

As some of us have mentioned, this article has Reggie Miller points to the Suns taking their foot off the gas pedal at the end of the regular season and losing their edge at just the wrong time -

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/ ... 6oUCDrg7ms

Of course there's more to it that that - New Orleans and Dallas exploited matchup advantages a lot better than the Suns did, but the Suns certainly lacked a spark and I would say they came out flat in almost half of their playoff games. although they managed to win a couple of those against the Pelicans.

Did they fool themselves with their "Revenge Tour" talk? The intensity certainly was dialed back a couple of notches after they clinched the NBA's best record and they never got it turned back up.

Monty Williams certainly has to shoulder a large share of the blame. So do their leaders, Chris Paul and Devin Booker. But there really wasn't anyone on the team who elevated their game this postseason. There were a few outstanding games here and there, but nothing that was sustained.
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ShelC
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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by ShelC »

Everything Bickley wrote at the end was true. There's something that was hanging over the team that went beyond injuries or just taking their foot off the gas. More relief than disappointment it seemed. Despondent, detached, no joy even when they beat the Pels. CP, even with the injury, wasn't even looking at the basket when he had space. Just weird.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by virtual9mm »

ShelC wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:06 am
Everything Bickley wrote at the end was true. There's something that was hanging over the team that went beyond injuries or just taking their foot off the gas. More relief than disappointment it seemed. Despondent, detached, no joy even when they beat the Pels. CP, even with the injury, wasn't even looking at the basket when he had space. Just weird.
Has to be something along these lines, right? Chris Paul playing when he was hurting the team. Or something else that destroyed the chemistry built up over two seasons. Or did something come out among the players regarding Sarver?

Who knows...in the end, a championship team wouldn't have cracked like they did.

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Re: NBA Playoffs WCSF, Game 7: Dallas Mavericks @ Phoenix Suns (3-3), Sunday 15/05/22

Post by SunsRIt »

He wasn’t the same after people messed with his family in Dallas?

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