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The thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.
I think there’s a few factors:SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pmThe thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.
I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
So we’re going to let a 37 year old point guard determine the future of a 23 year old center with this team? Seems pretty short sighted.Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pmI think there’s a few factors:SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pmThe thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.
I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.
2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.
3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.
Bingo.SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:41 pmSo we’re going to let a 37 year old point guard determine the future of a 23 year old center with this team? Seems pretty short sighted.Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pmI think there’s a few factors:SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pmThe thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.
I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.
2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.
3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.
What makes you think we have a chance at a title?Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pmWe have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
Sadly I think this is true. We are not winning the title with this team as is, so we should make some changes. What they are is hard to say, but once you accept we need to make some changes to win a title, it’s easier to accept moving the 37yo is the right thing to do. Not easy given he did help push us into contention the past two years, but easier.specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pmWhat makes you think we have a chance at a title?Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pmWe have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.
We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
He was abused because he was injured. And CP is ball dominant in terms of managing the offense and the overall game. This isn't a 37 yr old Kobe or AI taking shots away from DA.specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pmWhat makes you think we have a chance at a title?Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pmWe have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.
We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
CP3 is old. And going to get hurt in the playoff grind every time. It’s what happens to him, it’s not an excuse it’s reality. There is no reality where he plays consistently at a high level in the playoffsShelC wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 8:17 amHe was abused because he was injured. And CP is ball dominant in terms of managing the offense and the overall game. This isn't a 37 yr old Kobe or AI taking shots away from DA.specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pmWhat makes you think we have a chance at a title?Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pmWe have a chance at a title because of CP3…We’re not going to get anything nearly equal in value if we tried to trade CP3. Talking realized current value. So any move that gets rid of CP3 will also lower our chances at winning now. Changing the offense to try and develop Ayton also lowers our chance at winning now. I don’t believe Ayton will ever be a #2 and certainly not if Booker is the #1. So building for the future by trading CP3 also doesn’t seem like a good plan as CP3 will almost surely not net us a top 3 guy.
Ultimately if maximizing or title odds is the goal, it results in us needing to trade Ayton for something that fits this current teams style and timeline better. That’s the best way to maximize the title odds imo.
Sure, we HAD a chance at the title up 2-0 against the Bucks.
We had no chance this year. We struggled to beat a NOP team that squeaked into the play-in tournament. At no point this year in the playoffs did we look consistently formidable. Moving forward with CP3, we look even less likely to have a chance at a title relying on a 37 year old ball dominant small man who was just absolutely abused on the defensive end
It's also not as black and white as "CP is old and that's why we lost". We lost, moreso IMO, because we got nothing from our bench guards who couldn't step up and lighten the load, much less win us a game. Payne was a non-factor, Holiday was buried and Shamet didn't become the gunner we envisioned. Yea CP is old and gets hurt, but we were the deepest team in the league until we weren't. Payne killed it as a starter while CP was out and looked like he'd really turned a corner, then went to the bench and disappeared. If we get normal production from Payne with the occasional breakout scoring game, we're probably having a different convo. And that's not to put it on Payne either, just that a lot of things went wrong seemingly all at once.
Going into the playoffs with only two dependable guards was asking for trouble. Payne's drop off after getting his new contract hurt them a lot.
Thank you!! This is probably as big of a factor and domino to the downfall in play from the end of the season and through the playoffs as anything, imo.The Bobster wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 9:09 amGoing into the playoffs with only two dependable guards was asking for trouble. Payne's drop off after getting his new contract hurt them a lot.
Agreed. We just must manage his minutes throughout the season so that he has something left for the playoffs.
If that’s all you’ve got then I don’t even need to post anymore. You’re making the argument better than I could. If we played inside out we could have beaten the Mavs.Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 pmI think there’s a few factors:SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:26 pmThe thing that confuses me is Ayton dominates the first quarter pretty often. Gets 8-12 points, maybe even 15-20 and finishes the game with 22 or 25. Is that Ayton’s fault? Like he says in the clip, he can’t pass himself the ball. The guy has talent and has improved his offense leaps and bounds since getting here. He has a really nice midrange jumper and a hook shot that he didn’t have when he got here, yet his offensive production really hasn’t gone up. What is the cause of the lack of productivity? Is it him not getting position? I have seen him get position over and over and not get a pass. I really think part of the problem is the Suns not utilizing him correctly.
I really don’t want him to leave the Suns and go somewhere else and become dominant. That’s what’s going to happen.
1. Teams adjust their strategy…if Ayton is hurting them early, they’ll show more help and the read changes for Paul and Booker. They take the shot or hit someone on the wing/corner who’s open because their man is shading towards Ayton. Now I do think the suns could do more to keep Ayton involved. He’s not shown a great ability to score against pressure, but we could’ve tried to bring that out of him.
2. Like I mentioned, I think we can do more to look for Ayton. Too often we were ok with him being a distraction. But part of that is Ayton. He’s not very aggressive. Maybe he’s been told to not be aggressive, but I doubt it. Everything I’ve heard from Monty suggests Ayton was always able to attack off the dribble during his DHO, he just rarely did. If you know Ayton needs space to attack, why pass it to him when he’s covered? I could see that going through Booker and Paul’s head.
3. They could’ve utilized him better, but that would’ve required a lot of growing pains. Our offense isn’t designed to work inside out. We gave him post touches when he got early seals, but an Ayton post up is kind of an endgame play. We’ve got no sets built off that. It ends with an Ayton shot or a pass out and reset with limited time on the clock. Now you could argue that we should have built sets designed around that into the offense, but I don’t think the suns wanted to do that. Ayton isn’t a particularly good passer and he’s not aggressive enough. He had a long way to go to develop as a post creator and we just didn’t have time for that with CP3 at 37.