Phx-Suns.Net

The dream is dead.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:32 pm

Ayton was told in many ways that we don't believe he is worth the max and we actively shopped him. I don't see him taking that and saying "well now I want to play better than ever for this team and I will work harder at this than ever before." I hope he proves me wrong.

But put me in the camp of trading anyone on the team if it means we have a better chance at winning a ring. Isn't that what we have been clamoring for, only to come up empty for over 50 years?

I agree, I guess I'm just saying that our current team minus Bridges + half-time KD with unengaged Ayton isn't better than our current team. I think Ayton's level of engagement really dictates how much wiggle room we have to take a risk like trading Bridges for KD (or more if that's what it takes).

wpmiller42 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:01 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:32 pm

Ayton was told in many ways that we don't believe he is worth the max and we actively shopped him. I don't see him taking that and saying "well now I want to play better than ever for this team and I will work harder at this than ever before." I hope he proves me wrong.

But put me in the camp of trading anyone on the team if it means we have a better chance at winning a ring. Isn't that what we have been clamoring for, only to come up empty for over 50 years?

I agree, I guess I'm just saying that our current team minus Bridges + half-time KD with unengaged Ayton isn't better than our current team. I think Ayton's level of engagement really dictates how much wiggle room we have to take a risk like trading Bridges for KD (or more if that's what it takes).

I think "half-time KD" and "unengaged Ayton" is assuming the very worst case scenario (short of major injury) for both players. And I don't think that is the most likely outcome.

The reality is our weakest link this whole time is the same weakest link...

- Chris has to bear too much of the load...he has to play too many minutes.
- We need a starting quality PG that is willing and able to come off the bench. If we could do a good job on that front, I still feel we have better than even odds at making a good run at things. If we don't shore that up, I think we come up short for similar reasons.

...any options out there that we see working? Or are we going to go with the pain of Payne...and be surprised when we find out we were inSane and suffer the Payne of coming up short...again.

VT

Vladimir_Taltos wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:02 pm

The reality is our weakest link this whole time is the same weakest link...

- Chris has to bear too much of the load...he has to play too many minutes.
- We need a starting quality PG that is willing and able to come off the bench. If we could do a good job on that front, I still feel we have better than even odds at making a good run at things. If we don't shore that up, I think we come up short for similar reasons.

...any options out there that we see working? Or are we going to go with the pain of Payne...and be surprised when we find out we were inSane and suffer the Payne of coming up short...again.

VT

Suns history always seems to repeat itself doesn't it? Sounds like the Nash years...

Vladimir_Taltos wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:02 pm

The reality is our weakest link this whole time is the same weakest link...

- Chris has to bear too much of the load...he has to play too many minutes.
- We need a starting quality PG that is willing and able to come off the bench. If we could do a good job on that front, I still feel we have better than even odds at making a good run at things. If we don't shore that up, I think we come up short for similar reasons.

...any options out there that we see working? Or are we going to go with the pain of Payne...and be surprised when we find out we were inSane and suffer the Payne of coming up short...again.

VT

According to some the problem isn't a lack of backup PG and SG to Booker and CP3 during the regular season though. That's not the culprit of our issues. I'm 100% in agreement that if we had top notch backup guard depth last season, we wouldn't have collapsed horrifically in the playoffs 2nd round.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:45 pm

The dream is dead.

Nah. This is all Nets tryna drive up price. Constantly trying to drive up price. But if we’re out, we’re out. I think there are quick options for us to nab a Jordan Clarkson type.

We just need to get Jakob Poettl, give him a max and win a championship

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:47 pm

We just need to get Jakob Poettl, give him a max and win a championship

Hot Rod Williams move. Pull it.

If anyone thinks the difference in us winning a championship this year or last was simply a better backup PG, you are deluding yourselves.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm

If anyone thinks the difference in us winning a championship this year or last was simply a better backup PG, you are deluding yourselves.

GUARDS. Not just PG. We didn't have a competent SG either. You think Booker and CP3 looked healthy and fresh in the playoffs? You think the regular season grind with absolute shit backing them up didn't cause them to break down by the time the Dallas series kicked off? Yeah, CP3 had a historic game against New Orleans. He also looked busted AF after that game and was useless against Dallas..

I already know your take. We needed a 3rd go to scoring threat. We'll agree to disagree. I won't say you're deluding yourself though. I will say it definitely played a part as well. Why can't both reasons be essentially equal? I don't think I'm that far off. And my take was this past season. The season prior was a clear lack of depth behind Ayton.

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:45 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:45 pm

The dream is dead.

Nah. This is all Nets tryna drive up price. Constantly trying to drive up price. But if we’re out, we’re out. I think there are quick options for us to nab a Jordan Clarkson type.

Sure, but I don't believe Mikal and every non-Paul/Booker/Ayton asset on the Suns books will get it done.

Ayton will have to be involved somehow for KD to end up in Phoenix, and that's been the only realistic scenario for the Suns this whole time.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm

If anyone thinks the difference in us winning a championship this year or last was simply a better backup PG, you are deluding yourselves.

You think doing nothing more on personnel is the answer? At the least, this would fix a major issue...Is argue the biggest one...this alone, who knows...but AT LEAST this...

IMO we lost last year because our team had a COVID outbreak. And, more generally, because we didn't have enough offensive creators other than CP3 and Book. If that's a backup PG, fine, but it also could have been a PF who knows how to dribble. Or a starting center you can initiate/run an offense through. Or any number of other options. We have a really nice team, but they do fall into the bad pattern of standing around waiting for CP3/Book to create something and then accepting whatever pass is fed to them. When our guards couldn't get that done, the whole offense sputtered.

I think the right backup pg could have helped, but we’re talking about someone who is essentially starter level. You need a great 7-8 man rotation for the playoffs. Our 8-man was

Paul, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton

Payne(Shamet), Johnson, McGee(Biyombo).

I’d order them:

1. Booker - not ideal as a 1, but an elite 2
2. Paul - elite as your number 2 when on top of his game
3. Ayton - Not ideal as a 3rd guy, but an elite 4th guy
4. Bridges - same as Ayton above I’d say
5. Crowder - perfectly fine 5th starter
6. Johnson - very good 6th man
7. Payne - not good enough for playoff rotation
8. McGee - suitable for 8th man.

So where I see a need for improvement:

1. Getting a guy that pushes Booker to #2 and CP3 to #3(KD)
2. Adding a reliable 3rd option who can fill in when CP3 isn’t at the top of his game.
3. Ayton and/or Mikal becoming more reliable as 3rd options that can create for themselves/others
4. Crowder/McGee spots are fine but upgradeable
5. The 7th man/backup pg spot is a clear upgrade need.

If we can’t get a true #1(KD) or an upgraded #3(don’t have anyone in particular in mind), I think we need to make at least 3 upgrades:

1. Upgrade Crowder to someone like Harrison Barnes.
2. Upgrade Cam Payne to someone like Eric Gordon/Jordan Clarkson
3. Upgrade McGee(Maybe that could be Saric)

Or:
1. Get a leap from Mikal, Ayton, CamJ, or Booker

Paul, Booker, Bridges, Barnes, Ayton
Gordon, Johnson, Saric

I think I would be happy with that roster. I don’t think it’s a title favorite, but we’d have a shot and with some injury luck and good chemistry, we could win.

Seems big

So KD is staying now?

Or the optimist in me thinks he has reiterated he only wants Phoenix and Brooklyn has said we can’t trade you there until Ayton is tradeable, so play nice for half a season.

I go with we had the best record in the league. We are a couple hired guns from winning it all.
We had no bench + covid outbreak. It’s not unreasonable to upgrade our 3rd guard position, possibly Crowder too, and push for growth with Bridges, Cam Johnson, and Ayton. Keep Calm.

Okay. So now what’s plan B? Plan B can’t be to run it back. That would be a terrible off-season. It doesn’t have to be huge moves, but we need 2 players that are more impactful at the backup 1 and 4 spots than what we currently have.