Monty Williams

[specialsauce]

Wow. I’ve haven’t heard anyone (other than James & Monty) say that last season was anything other than a complete failure.

How is it not underachieving for a 64-win team to not make it out of the second round? And mainly due to abysmal coaching and being completely out-coached in both rounds.

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Last season was a complete failure. We were far and away the best team in the league in the regular season, coming off a finals run the year before, and we collapsed against a significantly inferior opponent by all measures.

If you don’t think last year was a failure, you have accepted failure as being “good enough.”

Now, to call last year a failure you must also recognize the year before as a smashing success. Nobody expected this team to be competing at the level it has the last two years when Monty was hired and CP3 was brought on. They raised expectations by performing the way that they have.

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

[Split T]

Wow. I’ve haven’t heard anyone (other than James & Monty) say that last season was anything other than a complete failure.

How is it not underachieving for a 64-win team to not make it out of the second round? And mainly due to abysmal coaching and being completely out-coached in both rounds.

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Just because we had bottom-of-the-barrel coaches before--due to a cheap owner--means we should settle for anyone who's better than they were? That's not my bar. My bar is having a coach who knows how to best utitlize his players and who can coach in the playoffs--the most important time for coaching.

Where did I say anything about firing him over 5 bad games? I said I can see him getting fired if we have another underachieving season.

I mean he took a team to the finals the year before, but I guess that doesn’t count for playoff coaching.

And you’re not just saying if we have another underachieving season, you’re predicting it. The way you talk about him makes me think you’d prefer to cut ties now, but admittedly that’s me making assumptions. Sure, if we lose to a lesser team in an early round of the playoffs again where Monty is out coached, then I think we need to start addressing the situation, but my first instinct wouldn’t be to fire him.

Personally I think of the two, I’d put more fault on James Jones for last year. I thought Monty should’ve adjusted the defensive strategy on Luka, but JJ didn’t put our roster in position to win. We had no answer for Booker getting doubled, no one else could make a play, and Booker doesn’t exactly handle doubles the best.

It would depend on how we lose, but if we lose because we don’t have a third creator and Book/CP3 underperformed or got hurt, I put that mostly on James Jones for not adding another creator. If we lose because Monty keeps switching CP3 onto Luka over and over again, then that’s on Monty. I don’t expect he’ll make that mistake again though.

[carey]

Monty has his faults, but talking about him as a failure is totally strange to me. Is there someone else you'd rather have outside of Pop or Kerr? I mean Bud was about to be fired before Giannis went supernova. You want Jason Kidd? Nash? What are we talking about here?

[Split T]

Wow. I’ve haven’t heard anyone (other than James & Monty) say that last season was anything other than a complete failure.

How is it not underachieving for a 64-win team to not make it out of the second round? And mainly due to abysmal coaching and being completely out-coached in both rounds.

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Last season was a complete failure. We were far and away the best team in the league in the regular season, coming off a finals run the year before, and we collapsed against a significantly inferior opponent by all measures.

If you don’t think last year was a failure, you have accepted failure as being “good enough.”

Now, to call last year a failure you must also recognize the year before as a smashing success. Nobody expected this team to be competing at the level it has the last two years when Monty was hired and CP3 was brought on. They raised expectations by performing the way that they have.

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

[Superbone]

Williams is one of the best coaches in the league. Unless you have something lined up better, and I don't know of any available coach out there that fits the bill, it would be VERY dangerous to change coaching.

It's obvious that your singular love for Ayton is clouding your judgement. If last season was an absolute failure, then so was your guy Ayton. We had our best regular season in 50+ years of Suns history. It wasn't all bad obviously. Did it end badly? Of course. Can we learn from it? Again, yes, of course. You don't throw it all away due to one bad outcome. The season before was almost the opposite outcome and almost the first championship in team history. It was the closest we've ever been to a championship in team history. You don't throw that all away because of one lousy outcome. Be smart about it. Not just reactive.

[Split T]

Well said

[Wally_West]

Williams is one of the best coaches in the league. Unless you have something lined up better, and I don't know of any available coach out there that fits the bill, it would be VERY dangerous to change coaching.

It's obvious that your singular love for Ayton is clouding your judgement. If last season was an absolute failure, then so was your guy Ayton. We had our best regular season in 50+ years of Suns history. It wasn't all bad obviously. Did it end badly? Of course. Can we learn from it? Again, yes, of course. You don't throw it all away due to one bad outcome. The season before was almost the opposite outcome and almost the first championship in team history. It was the closest we've ever been to a championship in team history. You don't throw that all away because of one lousy outcome. Be smart about it. Not just reactive.

This.

[specialsauce]

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Last season was a complete failure. We were far and away the best team in the league in the regular season, coming off a finals run the year before, and we collapsed against a significantly inferior opponent by all measures.

If you don’t think last year was a failure, you have accepted failure as being “good enough.”

Now, to call last year a failure you must also recognize the year before as a smashing success. Nobody expected this team to be competing at the level it has the last two years when Monty was hired and CP3 was brought on. They raised expectations by performing the way that they have.

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

[specialsauce]

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Last season was a complete failure. We were far and away the best team in the league in the regular season, coming off a finals run the year before, and we collapsed against a significantly inferior opponent by all measures.

If you don’t think last year was a failure, you have accepted failure as being “good enough.”

Now, to call last year a failure you must also recognize the year before as a smashing success. Nobody expected this team to be competing at the level it has the last two years when Monty was hired and CP3 was brought on. They raised expectations by performing the way that they have.

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

The journey is only worth looking back on and remembering if you won. This last season will be lumped together with all the Ls this franchise has accumulated in history

[Split T]

Last season was a complete failure. We were far and away the best team in the league in the regular season, coming off a finals run the year before, and we collapsed against a significantly inferior opponent by all measures.

If you don’t think last year was a failure, you have accepted failure as being “good enough.”

Now, to call last year a failure you must also recognize the year before as a smashing success. Nobody expected this team to be competing at the level it has the last two years when Monty was hired and CP3 was brought on. They raised expectations by performing the way that they have.

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

The journey is only worth looking back on and remembering if you won. This last season will be lumped together with all the Ls this franchise has accumulated in history

That’s where we disagree then, I don’t think I could stomach being a fan if there was no joy in anything short of a championship

[specialsauce]

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

The journey is only worth looking back on and remembering if you won. This last season will be lumped together with all the Ls this franchise has accumulated in history

That’s where we disagree then, I don’t think I could stomach being a fan if there was no joy in anything short of a championship

That’s fair

[AmareIsGod]

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Yes ultimately we failed and it was a disappointing/underwhelming finish. No arguments there, but that was still the best regular season team in suns history.

I just don’t like the all or nothing mentality. I want a championship, but I’m going to enjoy the other stuff too.

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

The journey is only worth looking back on and remembering if you won. This last season will be lumped together with all the Ls this franchise has accumulated in history

That’s where we disagree then, I don’t think I could stomach being a fan if there was no joy in anything short of a championship

Agreed. I had a hell of a great time during the regular season chasing the franchise record, beating so many great teams, watching entertaining basketball. I mean, for fucks sake, if all of that doesn't mean shit, like was said earlier: don't watch the games during the regular season and interact with the other fans around here because it's all a massive waste if they don't win it all. It's like telling people to never watch a phenomenal series of television if the finale isn't up to your standards. There were so many enjoyable moments leading up to the finale that can still make the experience very enjoyable.

It can be a failure at the end while still being a great, entertaining and enjoyable season leading up the failure. To try and claim otherwise is bullshit. We're all going to die. Does that mean life isn't worth living?

[AmareIsGod]

Also, this is such a bullshit poll Jeremy. You constantly suck off your favorite player that has ZERO faults while throwing nothing but shade at Monty. I feel like you only give a rats ass about this team because Ayton is on the roster. You're a pretty shitty fan of the team overall. I feel like every thread and conversation lately is getting hijacked by your stupid agenda. Defend Ayton. Bash the organization, the coach and the GM. Rinse, wash, repeat, ad nauseam. I feel like every Suns thread feels like putting a blow dryer to my eyeballs by how shitty it is when you insert yourself into the conversation.

[Superbone]

It’s not all or nothing. It’s relative.

The Suns team in 2016 would have been a smashing success if they made the playoffs as constructed and with the expectations they had.

This team had a championship goal, had the roster for it, and was the best regular season suns team in history”(whatever the hell participation trophy that’s supposed to net you)

They lost to a team they should have swept.

That is an objective complete failure.

My point is you’re only concerned about the end result. Nothing before those 5 final games mattered. I don’t see it like that. Yes it was a failure, I’m not denying that. It was an embarrassing display of basketball, but if I can’t find positives and enjoyment out of the other games, why watch them in the first place? Just wait till the playoffs when we face a team that is a real challenge to us.

Should we sit Booker and CP3 until the playoffs? Load manage them like Kawhi does? Maybe let Jarrett Jack coach until the playoffs?

Correct I am only concerned about the final 5 games. That’s the point of sports- to win a championship. There are no moral victories and no trophies for second place, let alone 5th place

The journey is only worth looking back on and remembering if you won. This last season will be lumped together with all the Ls this franchise has accumulated in history

That’s where we disagree then, I don’t think I could stomach being a fan if there was no joy in anything short of a championship

Agreed. I had a hell of a great time during the regular season chasing the franchise record, beating so many great teams, watching entertaining basketball. I mean, for fucks sake, if all of that doesn't mean shit, like was said earlier: don't watch the games during the regular season and interact with the other fans around here because it's all a massive waste if they don't win it all. It's like telling people to never watch a phenomenal series of television if the finale isn't up to your standards. There were so many enjoyable moments leading up to the finale that can still make the experience very enjoyable.

It can be a failure at the end while still being a great, entertaining and enjoyable season leading up the failure. To try and claim otherwise is bullshit. We're all going to die. Does that mean life isn't worth living?

Yeah, that was a great movie with a lousy ending. The first two acts were fantastic but then the final act was very rushed. No rhythm.

[pickle]

Agreed. I had a hell of a great time during the regular season chasing the franchise record, beating so many great teams, watching entertaining basketball. I mean, for fucks sake, if all of that doesn't mean shit, like was said earlier: don't watch the games during the regular season and interact with the other fans around here because it's all a massive waste if they don't win it all. It's like telling people to never watch a phenomenal series of television if the finale isn't up to your standards. There were so many enjoyable moments leading up to the finale that can still make the experience very enjoyable.

It can be a failure at the end while still being a great, entertaining and enjoyable season leading up the failure. To try and claim otherwise is bullshit. We're all going to die. Does that mean life isn't worth living?

In other words the 64 win Suns were the Game of Thrones. What would be a TV equivalent to bubble Suns (the whole season)?

[AmareIsGod]

To be fair, sauce, I don't think you ever said it wasn't an entertaining season. It can be an entertaining failure. It was an enjoyable, entertaining season that I consider an afterthought already since we didn't win the championship.

[Shabazz]

I’m on Team Failure.

Our expectation coming in to the season and throughout the regular season was title contender. We didn’t make it out of the second round and lost in humiliating fashion.

Had we made the WCF and lost to the eventual champ Warriors it would have been more palatable.

Doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy the regular season. But expectation vs outcome: failure.

[Split T]

I think we’ve shifted away from the actual comment. yes ultimately last season was a failure, I don’t think that anyone would really disagree, but calling it a complete failure and specifically in reference to Monty and calling out his atrocious coaching is what I am pushing back against.

[specialsauce]

To be fair, sauce, I don't think you ever said it wasn't an entertaining season. It can be an entertaining failure. It was an enjoyable, entertaining season that I consider an afterthought already since we didn't win the championship.

yeah now that I agree with

[INFORMER]

I take issue with complete failure…if you’re only going to judge by the end result then every single year of the suns existence has been a complete failure…

Eh, I think there is some middle ground there. The argument here isn't that last season was a complete failure because they didn't win a championship. I think the claim is that last season was a complete failure because the Suns had homecourt, surrendered a 2-0 series lead, and got blown out in Game 7 of the second round, all to a team that wasn't very good.

I don't think anyone would be saying that last season was a complete failure if the Suns made it to the conference finals and lost to the Warriors in a very competitive series.