Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by INFORMER »

I liked Chicago as a potential sign and trade destination for Ayton, and I think they are/will be a solid option approaching the deadline. With their struggles, I think Vucevic/White/Williams is a good package to get in return. I don't want Vucevic long-term; in fact, I would love to move him again before the deadline or get a third team involved to take him. Patrick Williams, Dalen Terry, and Coby White are the players I would want from Chicago to keep long-term.
Max Ayton vs Role Player Ayton: 2-2

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Wally_West
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Wally_West »




3 straight wins for the lakers too.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by virtual9mm »

The Suns, in their current iteration, go exactly as far as Ayton will take them. His development, as well as Bridges', is about the only thing I care about during the regular season.

His struggles so far have been...uninspiring...but to see folks tall about trading him for pu-pu packages misses the point. If we are getting rid of Ayton, might as well dismantle the entire team sans Booker.

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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Superbone »

Wally_West wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:47 pm
3 straight wins for the lakers too.
And guess who we play next?
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Wally_West
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Wally_West »

Superbone wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:42 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:47 pm
3 straight wins for the lakers too.
And guess who we play next?
I predict a loss from a Mori jinx 😭

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Mori Chu »

Wally_West wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:13 am
Superbone wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:42 pm
Wally_West wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:47 pm
3 straight wins for the lakers too.
And guess who we play next?
I predict a loss from a Mori jinx 😭
I will stay the heck away from that thread!

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carey
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by carey »

virtual9mm wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:40 pm
The Suns, in their current iteration, go exactly as far as Ayton will take them. His development, as well as Bridges', is about the only thing I care about during the regular season.

His struggles so far have been...uninspiring...but to see folks tall about trading him for pu-pu packages misses the point. If we are getting rid of Ayton, might as well dismantle the entire team sans Booker.
Why? I disagree that the team is built around Ayton. Furthermore I feel if you get someone of equal defensive skill that can finish a pick & roll you probably don't miss a beat. Especially if you were to add more ball handling and shooting to the team.
Go Suns!

Og Snus!

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by AmareIsGod »

carey wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:32 am
virtual9mm wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:40 pm
The Suns, in their current iteration, go exactly as far as Ayton will take them. His development, as well as Bridges', is about the only thing I care about during the regular season.

His struggles so far have been...uninspiring...but to see folks tall about trading him for pu-pu packages misses the point. If we are getting rid of Ayton, might as well dismantle the entire team sans Booker.
Why? I disagree that the team is built around Ayton. Furthermore I feel if you get someone of equal defensive skill that can finish a pick & roll you probably don't miss a beat. Especially if you were to add more ball handling and shooting to the team.
Agreed. Ayton isn't some sort of unicorn for his position. He scores at a decent clip from an efficiency perspective but gives you nothing from a FT perspective or putting the other team in the penalty with fouls. He rebounds at an average rate, if not an underwhelming rate. He can guard the perimeter with some lateral quickness. There's nothing he does that an average to above average starting center in the league can't do or can't be replaced with their production. He doesn't have a consistent mid-range game, still can't produce well off the dribble and doesn't shoot the 3-ball with any consistency to be considered a threat.

I mean, sure, his development can mean great strides for our team. We've played this game year after year looking for some sort of next level jump in his production but I'm afraid he is what he is and lighting that internal fire to dominate and play hard in the paint only comes in half game spurts on an inconsistent basis.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Split T »

carey wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:32 am
virtual9mm wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:40 pm
The Suns, in their current iteration, go exactly as far as Ayton will take them. His development, as well as Bridges', is about the only thing I care about during the regular season.

His struggles so far have been...uninspiring...but to see folks tall about trading him for pu-pu packages misses the point. If we are getting rid of Ayton, might as well dismantle the entire team sans Booker.
Why? I disagree that the team is built around Ayton. Furthermore I feel if you get someone of equal defensive skill that can finish a pick & roll you probably don't miss a beat. Especially if you were to add more ball handling and shooting to the team.
Some still believe Ayton has another level to him that has yet to be unlocked. I see his point if that’s what he believes. Maybe Ayton has that level, but I don’t think we’re seeing it here. So I agree with you, if we can get a 5 that defends well and can finish plus add another playoff rotation level wing or backcourt player, sign me up.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Mori Chu »

Ayton is still young, only 24. So I wouldn't be surprised if he has more room to grow. I think something that is underappreciated about Ayton is his well-roundedness. He doesn't excel at some areas we wish he were better at, but he doesn't have a lot of deep flaws or weaknesses. He can guard big centers and is laterally quick enough to help cover wings and guards. He is pretty good on both ends of the floor. He doesn't take bad shots, isn't particularly turnover-prone, doesn't blow defensive assignments. You wish he'd attack the basket more, but at least he doesn't really hurt you out there. Other bigs might bring something Ayton doesn't have, but most other bigs would bring some kind of weakness with them as well.

None of that means I would oppose an Ayton trade if it made our team better. BKN is willing to do a KD/Ayton focused package? Let's go. But I want to appreciate the value Ayton has.

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by INFORMER »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:24 pm
Other bigs might bring something Ayton doesn't have, but most other bigs would bring some kind of weakness with them as well.
I mean we've seen this team not miss a beat when Ayton has been out, playing guys like JaVale, Saric, Biyombo, and Landale at the 5. We see what the Warriors have done with Kevon Looney. The Bucks beat us with Brook Lopez and Bobby Portis. Dallas beat us with Max Kleber and Dwight Powell.

I think we've seen a lot of evidence to suggest we don't need Ayton to contend.
Max Ayton vs Role Player Ayton: 2-2

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Split T »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:24 pm
Ayton is still young, only 24. So I wouldn't be surprised if he has more room to grow. I think something that is underappreciated about Ayton is his well-roundedness. He doesn't excel at some areas we wish he were better at, but he doesn't have a lot of deep flaws or weaknesses. He can guard big centers and is laterally quick enough to help cover wings and guards. He is pretty good on both ends of the floor. He doesn't take bad shots, isn't particularly turnover-prone, doesn't blow defensive assignments. You wish he'd attack the basket more, but at least he doesn't really hurt you out there. Other bigs might bring something Ayton doesn't have, but most other bigs would bring some kind of weakness with them as well.

None of that means I would oppose an Ayton trade if it made our team better. BKN is willing to do a KD/Ayton focused package? Let's go. But I want to appreciate the value Ayton has.
You’re describing a role player. None of us would have a problem if we had Ayton on like a 12 million a year salary. We’d be thrilled at what we’re getting. The problem is he’s being paid to be a superstar and be a true running mate next to Booker. He’s not that. He’s being outplayed by the Jusuf Nurkic and Jakob Poeltls of the world.

I’d love to trade Ayton for a different max level player, but it doesn’t feel like that’s possible. If that’s not possible I’d love to cash in on this “potential” that he has and get multiple pieces for him. Get one of those cheaper, lower ceiling centers that are outplaying him and add much needed depth in the process.

If Portland offered me Nurkic/Hart I’d take it.
Same with SA if they offered Poeltl/Vassell. I’d even consider taking Poeltl/McDermott/Richardson at this point.

We’ll see what he does between now and Jan 15th, but I’m not expecting much difference.

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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Superbone »

Yeah, I think we all agree that if Ayton were getting paid appropriately, this would be a non-issue. But he is getting paid THE MAX. I don't think it is strange that we all expect a max-type player at that rate.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by INFORMER »

IMO, Nurkic is not a good trade target. Too much of a plodder and gets hurt all the time. I don't like his combination of lack of athleticism AND that he isn't a substantial threat from the perimeter.

I'd stay with Ayton over trading for Nurkic.
Max Ayton vs Role Player Ayton: 2-2

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by specialsauce »

INFORMER wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:29 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:24 pm
Other bigs might bring something Ayton doesn't have, but most other bigs would bring some kind of weakness with them as well.
I mean we've seen this team not miss a beat when Ayton has been out, playing guys like JaVale, Saric, Biyombo, and Landale at the 5. We see what the Warriors have done with Kevon Looney. The Bucks beat us with Brook Lopez and Bobby Portis. Dallas beat us with Max Kleber and Dwight Powell.

I think we've seen a lot of evidence to suggest we don't need Ayton to contend.
We could downgrade at C and upgrade elsewhere and be fine.

Our biggest hole is that we don’t have a real #2, and our guys being paid to be a #2 (DA or CP3) are not reliable or talented enough.

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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:24 pm
Ayton is still young, only 24. So I wouldn't be surprised if he has more room to grow. I think something that is underappreciated about Ayton is his well-roundedness. He doesn't excel at some areas we wish he were better at, but he doesn't have a lot of deep flaws or weaknesses. He can guard big centers and is laterally quick enough to help cover wings and guards. He is pretty good on both ends of the floor. He doesn't take bad shots, isn't particularly turnover-prone, doesn't blow defensive assignments. You wish he'd attack the basket more, but at least he doesn't really hurt you out there. Other bigs might bring something Ayton doesn't have, but most other bigs would bring some kind of weakness with them as well.

None of that means I would oppose an Ayton trade if it made our team better. BKN is willing to do a KD/Ayton focused package? Let's go. But I want to appreciate the value Ayton has.
Paying the max, for a well rounded player... with room to grow... Sorry, but not buying it at all. That's not Max Value, so you are overapreciating him.

At least for the start of this contract, the Suns are granting Ayton the" Bender scholarship for Big Men that have all the tools, and might get it some day". Tired of keep waiting for the bulb to light up, after over FOUR years.

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: Week 5 (10/14 - 10/20)

Post by specialsauce »

virtual9mm wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:40 pm
The Suns, in their current iteration, go exactly as far as Ayton will take them. His development, as well as Bridges', is about the only thing I care about during the regular season.

His struggles so far have been...uninspiring...but to see folks tall about trading him for pu-pu packages misses the point. If we are getting rid of Ayton, might as well dismantle the entire team sans Booker.
Your first paragraph is correct.

Your second paragraph is a mutually exclusive statement and I disagree with it.

Our current team as built relies on Booker way too much and then a bunch of players either incapable, scared or unwilling to carry the load consistently on offense.

Say we traded DA and Jae for Terry Rozier and PJ Washington?

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