SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

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MightyMoog
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by MightyMoog »

I still see the suns playing the short game and the long game. Let's say they get Randle. You now have your future starting 5 in Len, randle, warren, goodwin and ennis.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Ring_Wanted »

INFORMER wrote:I believe that the Thomas-Dragic combo can be ridiculously potent. It's not a combo that has to start, but it is a combo I would like to see be used extensively.
IT2-Dragic backcourt is very dangerous on offense but also terrible defensively, and you want to play it extensively? One of the Suns' strengths last year was guarding the three point line. That's gone if you change Bledsoe for Thomas.

By the way, regarding Ennis and IT2, I think they are Suns because Tyler was considered by McD as the best player available and Thomas was a bargain of a contract so he seized the opportunity.

The result is indeed leverage when negotiating with Bledsoe, but I don't think that was the main purpose behind those moves. Also, Hornacek supposedly wants to implement the two guard system as much as possible, so there was room for one more talented PG.
Last edited by Ring_Wanted on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

Penciling in Len and Ennis* as future starters is really wishful thinking.




*Sure Ennis could start, but he's basically going to be Raymond Felton. If that's the Suns long-term plan, I think I'm going to vomit.
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ShelC
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by ShelC »

Thomas and Bledsoe are comparable shooting the 3, and I would even say Thomas stands to improve playing on a better team where he can spot up, rather than create his own shot.

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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

ShelC wrote:Like or dislike Ennis, but McD drafted a PG, coveted by another team no less which could be a factor down the road.
Well first, the Raptors approached the Suns regarding Ennis, and the Suns said they weren't interested in dealing him. Secondly, I know you're a big proponent of the whole "Lon Babby had the Hedo-Gortat deal planned from the very beginning!" theory, but that's a terrible way of general managing. We're talking about the 18th pick in a great and deep draft. If the best way Ryan could come up with to use it is to draft a player that another team might deal for further down the line, then we're in trouble.
He obviously didn't know he'd land Thomas, so he drafted a PG and solidified the position even more by adding a proven player (Thomas) later on. If he knew he'd get Thomas or had Thomas on the roster, I doubt Ennis would've been the choice.
I'm getting this weird sense of deja vu...
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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

Ring_Wanted wrote: IT2-Dragic backcourt is very dangerous on offense but also terrible defensively
This sounds like more of an assumption than actually something based on facts and analysis. In fact it seems that many people are just thinking "Thomas is too small to defend."

Thomas was fine last season defending point guards, and the general consensus on this board is that Dragic does well defending 2-guaards. So I'm not seeing how putting them together equals terrible defense.
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Ring_Wanted
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Ring_Wanted »

INFORMER wrote: Well first, the Raptors approached the Suns regarding Ennis, and the Suns said they weren't interested in dealing him.
I read speculation about how the Suns were asking for Terrence Ross but the Raptors rejected it.

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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

I heard that too. But I did read from either Sam Amick or one of the Toronto beat guys that said the Suns told Toronto they drafted Ennis to keep him.
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Sunsfan4life
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Sunsfan4life »

Ring_Wanted wrote:

https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/490893102719459328


I'd do this trade and plug Randle in as a key piece for the next 6-8years.

Juluis Randle is going to be a stud in this league. I'd take him and a 1st for the Bledsoe, but I doubt its on the able.
“Kobe had said (after the play) I wasn’t hugged enough as a child,” Bell recalled. “My mom kind of found him after the instance and we had beat them and offered him a hug in the bowels of the Phoenix arena. She really feels a part of that story.”

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Ring_Wanted »

INFORMER wrote:
Ring_Wanted wrote: IT2-Dragic backcourt is very dangerous on offense but also terrible defensively
This sounds like more of an assumption than actually something based on facts and analysis. In fact it seems that many people are just thinking "Thomas is too small to defend."

Thomas was fine last season defending point guards, and the general consensus on this board is that Dragic does well defending 2-guaards. So I'm not seeing how putting them together equals terrible defense.
Please. Thomas is not the worst defender when he is into it (one of the games against Dragic, for instance) but his size hurts him. That's not is biggest flaw, though. I'm aware it's far from that simple. Watch games from last season and you won't have trouble spotting terrible defensive awareness and lack of agression. For facts and analysis, synergysport has him ranked 216th overall on defense. NBA.com rates him O/D 104.9 vs 104.8. In comparison, Dragic is 110.3 vs 103.; Bledsoe, 105.4 vs 100.5. BBall reference rates gives him a DWS of 1.3. and a 111 defensive rating, which puts him 419 overall and close to the likes of Foye, Terry or Claderon, Kendall Marshall. Bledsoe was #174, Goran #346.

So he was fine last season defending guards?

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ShelC
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by ShelC »

Ennis won't be Felton. I promise you that.

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ShelC
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

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I know you're a big proponent of the whole "Lon Babby had the Hedo-Gortat deal planned from the very beginning!"
He did, 100%. You think all that happened by accident? It was actually good GMing, surprisingly, from that group.
I heard that too. But I did read from either Sam Amick or one of the Toronto beat guys that said the Suns told Toronto they drafted Ennis to keep him.
So the rumor about TRoss is wrong, but what you read about us drafting Ennis to keep him is right? Of course we'd say that after we get rejected on a trade. You don't want Ennis feeling like just a pawn that we really don't want. And you've always been a proponent of acquiring assets, so why not acquire an asset that you know other teams will covet?

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LazarusLong
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by LazarusLong »

My major concern about Bledsoe is injuries. Like Rose and Westbrook, he's a terrific talent who plays at full blast ... and also is injury prone, because of it. Do you want to invest in a major asset that will only be on the court 60% of the season? It's not like this team does not have any depth at guard. And remember the Suns dodged a bullet last year with Eric Gordon remaining in N.O.

Let's not get caught up in the pairing of Dragic and Bledsoe. I remember how gooey everybody got about "Backcourt 2000" only to discover Penny Hardaway's knees were made of glass.
Window is open again ... blue skies ahead?

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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

Ring_Wanted wrote:
INFORMER wrote:
Ring_Wanted wrote: IT2-Dragic backcourt is very dangerous on offense but also terrible defensively
This sounds like more of an assumption than actually something based on facts and analysis. In fact it seems that many people are just thinking "Thomas is too small to defend."

Thomas was fine last season defending point guards, and the general consensus on this board is that Dragic does well defending 2-guaards. So I'm not seeing how putting them together equals terrible defense.
Please. Thomas is not the worst defender when he is into it (one of the games against Dragic, for instance) but his size hurts him. That's not is biggest flaw, though. I'm aware it's far from that simple. Watch games from last season and you won't have trouble spotting terrible defensive awareness and lack of agression. For facts and analysis, synergysport has him ranked 216th overall on defense. NBA.com rates him O/D 104.9 vs 104.8. In comparison, Dragic is 110.3 vs 103.; Bledsoe, 105.4 vs 100.5. BBall reference rates gives him a DWS of 1.3. and a 111 defensive rating, which puts him 419 overall and close to the likes of Foye, Terry or Claderon, Kendall Marshall. Bledsoe was #174, Goran #346.

So he was fine last season defending guards?
On the other hand, his PER per 48 minutes was 21.2. Point guards playing against him averaged 14.5. Additionally, the Kings gave up 108.6 per 100 possessions. When he was off the court, they gave up 112.9.

So in comparing his defensive advanced stats to other players, I would keep in mind the team he played for.
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Sunsfan4life
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Sunsfan4life »

Is anyone watching first take right now? I have off Mondays in the summer, so I am listening to Stephen A. Smith. Just said if Gordon Hayward got 4/63 Eric Bledsoe absolutely deserves the Max. Says the Suns by signing Isaiah Thomas don't want to pay him, he wants the Lakers to make a S&T For him...says he absolutely is worth it.

Oh and also said if he was Flip Saunders and the Wolves and was offered Andrew Wiggins,Anthony Bennet and a 1st he absolutely WOULD NOT do it.

Wow...not sure how much more you can get for love then that

He's sucha tool...like a gigantic off the base tool....
“Kobe had said (after the play) I wasn’t hugged enough as a child,” Bell recalled. “My mom kind of found him after the instance and we had beat them and offered him a hug in the bowels of the Phoenix arena. She really feels a part of that story.”

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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

ShelC wrote: So the rumor about TRoss is wrong, but what you read about us drafting Ennis to keep him is right?
Not necessarily. I just remember the keeping Ennis one seemed more definitive.
Of course we'd say that after we get rejected on a trade. You don't want Ennis feeling like just a pawn that we really don't want.
What I read was tweeted during the first round, IIRC. It wasn't like it was the next day or something. The Ennis pick was made and someone tweeted that the pick has to be on the move. Then a little later the tweet was refuted, saying the Suns want Ennis. If the whole point was to move Ennis, I don't think there would be an attempt, a rejection, and spin from the Suns front office in that short a window.
And you've always been a proponent of acquiring assets, so why not acquire an asset that you know other teams will covet?
Because it isn't the best use of the specific resource in question. I don't look at the 18th pick in 2014 draft and say to myself, "Hey, let's draft a player we don't need so that we can maybe get something good for him down the line." The best use of that 18th pick was for the best player that could provide the most help for the Suns IMO.
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MightyMoog
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by MightyMoog »

Gordon Hayward is the barometer? Both He and Parsons got overpaid. What about Lowry? I think that's a more comparable deal for what's fair market value.

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INFORMER
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by INFORMER »

ShelC wrote:
I know you're a big proponent of the whole "Lon Babby had the Hedo-Gortat deal planned from the very beginning!"
He did, 100%. You think all that happened by accident? It was actually good GMing, surprisingly, from that group.
I think the Suns wanted Hedo Turkoglu and they traded for him.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by Ring_Wanted »

INFORMER wrote:On the other hand, his PER per 48 minutes was 21.2. Point guards playing against him averaged 14.5. Additionally, the Kings gave up 108.6 per 100 possessions. When he was off the court, they gave up 112.9.

So in comparing his defensive advanced stats to other players, I would keep in mind the team he played for.
Yeah, like the two other guard the Kings had, right? Vasquez and McCollum had an even worse defensive rating per bballref. 114 and 112, respectively, which is a huge factor if you are using on/off stats.

Besides, numbers don't tell me how he actually behaves on the court. I'm no Kings savant, and don't pretend to be one, but I've watched some of their games this season, mainly after the Gay trade, and what I've seen is that he gives his man way too much space (which shows by the 3pt% against him, I read it was almost 40%), is not particularly fast laterally and it is not unusual seeing him giving up on chasing his man, making slow rotations or getting lost in the shuffle. On the other hand, I've seen much better defense than what I am describing, but that wasn't the norm, and in my opinion the difference was effort or intensity, which is far from ideal when you are so undersized. Definitely wouldn't say he is fine guarding PGs, let alone when being compared to Bledsoe or taking his minutes.

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Re: SUNS 2014: Free Agency 2 (new)

Post by wpmiller42 »

Sunsfan4life wrote:Is anyone watching first take right now? I have off Mondays in the summer, so I am listening to Stephen A. Smith. Just said if Gordon Hayward got 4/63 Eric Bledsoe absolutely deserves the Max. Says the Suns by signing Isaiah Thomas don't want to pay him, he wants the Lakers to make a S&T For him...says he absolutely is worth it.

Oh and also said if he was Flip Saunders and the Wolves and was offered Andrew Wiggins,Anthony Bennet and a 1st he absolutely WOULD NOT do it.

Wow...not sure how much more you can get for love then that

He's sucha tool...like a gigantic off the base tool....
I think what Smith is missing is that players of size, like forwards and centers, are much more in demand than guards. Haywood and Parsons got overpaid because they have size and can shoot. I like Bledsoe a lot, but to get the max, you need to be like a top 3 guard and show you can stay healthy over a whole season.

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