Game Day: Knicks (13-10) @ Suns (13-11), Fri 12/15/23

[Split T]

A pg doesn’t help our defense…that’s our biggest problem.

True, but it would free up our offense which would help to offset some of our defensive deficiencies. At the moment we're not great on either end of the floor.

I think the offense is fine…they need more reps together, but I think some people are having trouble realizing Booker is a better pg than just about anyone else we could put there. He’s averaging 8.3 assists per game. Our turnovers dropped significantly when he came back. Do we really want the ball in Cam Payne’s hands instead of Booker?

[JeremyG]

What made us so good in 2020-2022 was our defensive personnel. But we traded away 4 of our 5 starters (Crowder, Bridges, Ayton, and Paul) who were the backbone of that defense. (Not saying Booker’s been bad defensively by any means since 2020). But those players together provided the kind of team defense that Vogel could have worked with to make it elite. You can’t just create something out of nothing, no matter how good of a coach you are.

[Split T]

That’s true..we don’t have great defensive personnel, but right now most of it is just effort. Our half court defensive numbers have been good enough…the transition D is what’s killing us.

[SunsSince92]

A pg doesn’t help our defense…that’s our biggest problem.

True, but it would free up our offense which would help to offset some of our defensive deficiencies. At the moment we're not great on either end of the floor.

I think the offense is fine…they need more reps together, but I think some people are having trouble realizing Booker is a better pg than just about anyone else we could put there. He’s averaging 8.3 assists per game. Our turnovers dropped significantly when he came back. Do we really want the ball in Cam Payne’s hands instead of Booker?

That's fair about Book, I agree we wouldn't be able to bring in anyone better than him at pg with the assets we have. I definitely wouldn't want the ball in Cam Payne's hands as I was more than ready to move on from him lol.

I guess my issue with the offense is it's low tempo. It's fine if we score but when Book has been bouncing the ball for 20 seconds only to turn it over or give it to someone else for a contested shot we just end up getting cooked in transition at the other end.

Sometimes the offense is brilliantly fluid and you get a glimpse of what this team can be but alot of the time it looks laboured. If we could improve our transition offense I think it would help set a better tone for our defense.

[Split T]

We were playing fast to start the season…maybe that was part of the reason we were turning it over…My biggest issue is we don’t seem to have a good plan for the junk defenses teams throw at us. We need to go fast when they trap Book. Get it out of his hands and attack fast.

[Wally_West]

Embarrassing.

[AmareIsGod]

A pg doesn’t help our defense…that’s our biggest problem.

We are a careless turnover machine with a lack of pace most of many games.

[Superbone]

I think this is kind of what happens when you trade / turn over almost your entire team. You get a bunch of guys who are better on paper than the guys you had last year, but they aren't really Suns in their heart, and they don't really truly give a shit about the team or each other. You get a bunch of guys who just kind of go out there and play pickup ball, shooting when they get the ball. No real offensive flow, big lapses on defense.

And as much as KD has been great for us, I think the general strategy of betting a decade's worth of assets on a single year's team is basically insane. If this team doesn't end up contending, we are going to be bad for a really, really, really long time.

I'm still 100% happy with the Ayton/Nurk+Little swap. But outside of that I kind of just wish we had our old team back with CP3, Mikal, CamJ, Payne, and the rest. That team was flawed but they were a band of brothers, and often the result was bigger than the sum of the parts.

I'd love to know what Ishbia is thinking right now.

[Superbone]

Go DBacks!

No excuses. Vogel was hired because of his championship pedigree (let's face it, that was all LeBron and a superstar team) and defense. He's missing the mark, big time. This staff is a disappointment. Beal hasn't been the missing piece. Team lacks ZERO identity other than an emotionless blob of collective meh.

Vogel has a very long track record of having great defensive teams. But we traded away all of our defensive players so it’s kind of hard to expect a great defensive team.

Agreed - it's like giving D'antoni a bunch of defenders and asking him to make them a great offensive team. Yes improvements could be made but the personnel aren't there for this to be a good defensive team.

I don't agree. Maybe we don't have the personnel to be elite defensively but they could at least give a shit and make an effort. What I'm seeing is a total lack of awareness and effort. How many of Brunson's three were wide open last night? There is no excuse for them to not be at least average defensively. At least make an effort on that side of the ball.

[Split T]

A pg doesn’t help our defense…that’s our biggest problem.

We are a careless turnover machine with a lack of pace most of many games.

Turnovers haven’t been nearly as bad lately…there’s still some really dumb ones that stand out, but we only had 11 last night. That’s not bad.

[Superbone]

A pg doesn’t help our defense…that’s our biggest problem.

We are a careless turnover machine with a lack of pace most of many games.

Turnovers haven’t been nearly as bad lately…there’s still some really dumb ones that stand out, but we only had 11 last night. That’s not bad.

Most of them were in the first quarter and were pretty bad.

[Split T]

Ya they were… 5 in the first, 4 in the 2nd…then only 2 in the 2nd half

[SunsSince92]

Go DBacks!

No excuses. Vogel was hired because of his championship pedigree (let's face it, that was all LeBron and a superstar team) and defense. He's missing the mark, big time. This staff is a disappointment. Beal hasn't been the missing piece. Team lacks ZERO identity other than an emotionless blob of collective meh.

Vogel has a very long track record of having great defensive teams. But we traded away all of our defensive players so it’s kind of hard to expect a great defensive team.

Agreed - it's like giving D'antoni a bunch of defenders and asking him to make them a great offensive team. Yes improvements could be made but the personnel aren't there for this to be a good defensive team.

I don't agree. Maybe we don't have the personnel to be elite defensively but they could at least give a shit and make an effort. What I'm seeing is a total lack of awareness and effort. How many of Brunson's three were wide open last night? There is no excuse for them to not be at least average defensively. At least make an effort on that side of the ball.

I completely agree that they should be at least average if they put in the effort to be so. However, I think it's unreasonable for us to expect Vogel to work miracles with a roster devoid of defensive talent.

Ensuring they give 100% effort on D is definitely on him. There's no excuse for that and he needs to come down hard on them for the lack of effort they've shown to date. Turning a bunch of minimum contract guys and 3 elite scorers not known for their defense into a good/great defensive team is a stretch though.

[Mori Chu]

Yea the pre-KD team was topped out talent-wise and overmatched physically and athletically. I might've kept Monty and made the DA trade but CP had to go and we would've needed some heavy reinforcements. I miss those guys and miss watching those teams, but when you can get KD and Beal, you get them. It's still a talent league.

When you can get (35-year-old) KD (by trading away 2 starters and a decade's worth of draft picks) and (30-year-old made-of-glass) Beal (owed $50m / year for 4 more years), you get them?

[ShelC]

Yea the pre-KD team was topped out talent-wise and overmatched physically and athletically. I might've kept Monty and made the DA trade but CP had to go and we would've needed some heavy reinforcements. I miss those guys and miss watching those teams, but when you can get KD and Beal, you get them. It's still a talent league.

When you can get (35-year-old) KD (by trading away 2 starters and a decade's worth of draft picks) and (30-year-old made-of-glass) Beal (owed $50m / year for 4 more years), you get them?

Yes. In a superstar league like the NBA, you get them. If nothing else, you do it for the business.

[Split T]

Do the people who want to undo our trades think a CP3/Booker/Mikal trio is winning a title? I agree it would be a fun and easy team to root for, but it’s not winning anything.

Now maybe if we don’t do the KD trade we do the Lillard trade…maybe CP3, Ayton, 4 1sts for Dame and Nurk?

Dame/Booker/Mikal/CamJ/Nurk

I could get behind that, but you’re also assuming Portland would take a deal without Mikal and I’m not sure they would’ve.

[In2ition]

That would have been fun.

[Charlie Smithy!]

I don't know, I kind of feel like at this point I just want some homegrown talent to root for, especially in the form of some rookies. Which I realize considering it's James Jones, that's a pretty big ask.

I was leery about the trade in the moment, and hindsight isn't making me feel that much better.

[Sunsfanatic76]

Definitely disappointing that we lost and Beal getting hurt in the first quarter is the sunsiest thing ever that could happen too! So what are the best ways we can fix our glaring issues? There are a few legitimate possibilities WE CAN MAKE HAPPEN to turn things around despite our injuries.

1- Our Rebounding and defense
We need to establish NOW which players we are keeping in our top 8-9 of our rotation. establish concrete roles (specific) so these rotation players actually understand and fill their specific roles within their respective capabilities. We need to change out/waive or trade the remaining 5-6 bench options in favor of an upgrade via trade or tough, athletic (players with size and attitude/moxy) from the unsigned pool/G league to bring in toughness, defense athleticism, intensity and hunger in their respective roles. SIZE, ATHLETICISM, REBOUNDING, SHOTBLOCKING, PHYSICALITY. These are the attributes we need to target by either avenue. There ARE STILL really solid options out there to address our glaring issues even in the unsigned/G league pools that we could sign even on a vet min that could offer better impact and energy in a DEFINED ROLE. Go get Caruso who is 1st team all defense! ( and who Vogel is familiar with) and maybe take back Drummond as a backup 5 to address our rebounding! But go get aggressive, solid dfensive options for Vogel to work with, and get back to swarming defense and utilizing disruptive defense.

2- lackadaisical passes/play and too many players just standing around STAR GAZING instead of fullfilling their individual roles.
The suns need (must establish their identity! Our team is so inconsistent and just looks so very lost BECAUSE we've filled out our roster with vet mins that are either unsure of their roles and what's needed from them specifically. THIS PART IS ON THE COACHING STAFF! DEFINED ROLES!!! the coaching staff needs to establish defined roles for our rotational players (top 8-9) complimentary to their respective skillsets so there's no more confusion with an unreliable big three. IF they can't fullfll those simplified roles, then move them or cut them and then replace them with younger OR hungrier aggressive players with clearly stated roles. We DO ABSOLUTELY NEED A LEGIT POINT GUARD WHO'S NOT bOOKER!! To b e clear, Booker's been fairly great with his playmaking as our guard. However, we'd be much better served with a vet or legit natural point guard that is adept and familiar with playmaking and most importantly "in game management" and poise and tempo. This would also benefit us better by freeing up Booker to be more focused on offense, making it more potent again! ALSO, having a traditional guard/floor general would reduce or negate many of our foolish turnovers letting the guard tableset the offense with more clarity and better floor spacing with Booker ready to score rather than trying to figure out whether he needs to be passing or scoring on each play.

3- Our offensive struggles
I'm of the belief that a fair amount of our offensive struggles will be solved once we establish our identity/ individual roles. BUT ALSO in moving Booker back to 2 guard (and bringing Allen off the bench) by getting a traditional playmaking guard should definitively cut down our lazy passing/turnovers/ unforced errors and help improve our scoring from our starting unit as well as off the bench. Again, clearly defined roles will reduce/eliminate alot of our unforced errors and passive play (standing around looking confused and waiting for our injury prone stars to save the game. Now I understand there'll be some positional questions WHEN/ if Beal can actually come back and play regularly? But seeing (so far) as we just can't know if we can depend upon him being able to even stay healthy and play, We need to prioritize stability and defensive improvement and a sense of urgency/aggressive play. Get stabilized first and then look at whether Beal can even remain on the floor. Get out and push the pace more to promote higher percentage shots in offensive flow to negate standing around so much. Have set plays for our bench/ players outside of big three to still run a simplified offense whenever our big three is out or injured. Pushing the pace consistently will maintain a better energy and effort level and also allow for easier scoring opportunities before the opposing defense gets set.

[Mori Chu]

Do the people who want to undo our trades think a CP3/Booker/Mikal trio is winning a title? I agree it would be a fun and easy team to root for, but it’s not winning anything.

Well, maybe / maybe not. I think if you keep last year's team but trade Ayton + Chowder for Nurk + Allen + Little, then FA sign some of the same guys we already signed, such as Eric Gordon / Metu / Eubanks, you are left with the following very interesting team:

starters: CP3, Book, Mikal, CamJ, Nurkic
bench: Payne?, Gordon, Allen, Okogie, Little, Metu, Eubanks

I don't know if that team wins a title. But it's got a very talented starting lineup led by a PG who will make all those guys better. It's got a deep and talented bench including multiple guys who can run an offense or get a shot for themselves. It's got good defenders in the starting unit and bench. And, importantly, it's got a bunch of loyal long-time or career-long Suns who care about the team and city and care about each other, who play together well, who have been through some things together. That does matter.

AND, the above team isn't missing a decade's worth of draft picks, AND it isn't $999m over the cap for the next 5 years.

Now maybe if we don’t do the KD trade we do the Lillard trade…maybe CP3, Ayton, 4 1sts for Dame and Nurk?

Eh, I don't know. I like Dame, but he doesn't play defense, and we already have our Dame in Booker. I don't know if I like these superteams where you pair up high-usage guys and expect them to figure it out. I much prefer a roster construction with guys like Mikal and Nurk who can give you 20-25 points if you need it on some nights, but are just as happy to facilitate or do whatever the defense is giving them.