Game Day: Suns (19-17) @ Clippers (22-13), Mon 1/8/24

[Wally_West]

Also I really like Nurk, even with all his faults. Only would trade him for the right deal, I’m just throwing shit out there mostly. Haha

[TOO]

[Superbone]

Just my two cents on our issues (perspective mostly unchanged):

1- Point Guard IS a problem.

I know opinions are split on this because Book has done an admirable job at this. HOWEVER, the reason this IS a problem is because having Book as our primary point guard initiating the offense not only wears book down over 4 quarters trying to carry the load as BOTH a playmaker and still trying to be an offensive weapon for spacing. This has been apparent by his reduced efficiency/PPP by the 4th quarter. Also, it takes away the threat of Booker as a lethal scoring weapon that creates spacing if the opposing team knows he's looking to first get vet min options going before he looks to establish his own rhythm. Book is best at 2 guard being an elite threat for spacing, he may be doing a good job at the point, but he's wired to score not facilitate! Hence the lazy passes/ egregious turnovers. Having a legit natural point guard would allow Book to go back to his natural position as an elite scoring/spacing threat which would also help with spacing. It would also allow our dollar store bench options to get setup in their basic roles more effectively if not having to focus on being a high level scoring option additionally.

2- We need more size/athleticism/attitude/moxy

Nurkic has been better than expected in that he's at least been relatively solid. HOWEVER, He's not scaring any opponents as a vertical spacing threat or as a rim (protector) deterrent. And Metu although athletic isn't a rim protector paint deterent either. WE NEED a long, physical, elite athletic high flying shotblocker/rim protector (at the 4) to compliment Nurkic's plodding style because he's just not laterally mobile or athletic enough to recover. Adding this type of athlete would help shore up our weak side recovery issues and more importantly energize our oft listless team when they get apathetic. There are actually a number of good- really good options we could add (without trade) from the unsigned free agent/G league pool just by virtue of signing them outright (after maybe waiving some of our end of bench non performers. So even without legit or desirable trade assets, we could if we choose to, actually address/ upgrade these frontcourt issues.

3- We're a soft and mentally fragile team

As much as everyone touts our culture as wonderful, the downside of the high character/ choir boy culture mentality that prioritizes nice guys/good guys that are intellectual and very likable over legit elite athletes with physicality and who play with aggression is obvious that we get bullied by teams with these attributes in that they all know that they only need to be physical/aggressive/ tough with us and we fold and crumble like a little kid being bullied on the playground. WE NEED some physical, edgy, aggressive smashmouth style enforcers that can shield or insulate us from opposing teams bullying us with ZERO RESISTANCE. As much as people hate the thought of the suggestions of players I've mentioned like Pat Bev, DeMarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard etc, Those are exactly the type of players that we desperately need to add that tenacity,toughness, edginess, reputation and vocal energizing accountability for our roster because unfortunately none of our big three (or the coach) are vocal leaders that'll hold our team accountable or give it back to teams that bully us.

4- We need to run/push the pace

We need to be pushing the pace constantly because in doing so, it's much easier to maintain an offensive flow/ rhythm. We should be utilizing a swarming zone defense, playing the passing lanes aggressively and looking to score before opposing defenses get set up. This would allow our lesser talented vet min role players to get into an offensive flow without overthinking or wasting too much time on possessions during the shotclock, and would also reduce the propensity to play iso ball out of desperation as the shot clock runs down. Now to optimize this, WE DO NEED to add/upgrade from certain underperforming vet min options to more superior or gifted athletes with high motors. This will help create more easy sustainable offensive creation possessions early on from our bench to help afford our big three greater rest throughout the 1st three quarters of the game so they don't continue struggling from exhaustion in crunch time end of game scenarios. If we can optimize better possessions for our bench players, then our starters just won't be as pressured to carry the load so much. And most importantly, playing fast would help us get to the line more and draw more fouls in fastbreak mismatches with our big three.

Players we SHOULD be looking at (outside of trades) from the unsigned pool/ G league/ overseas?

Understanding our current situation that we just don't have the assets for any optimal high end positional options, our next best realistic options are:

PG-
Rubio, RJ Nembhard, Raul Neto, Kendrick Nunn, Ashton Hagans, John Wall, Elf Payton or George Hill? ........Sorry
*** IF he's found not guilty, I would strongly pursue a Kevin Porter Jr signing on a "prove it" cheap unguaranteed deal to be the guard/6th man scoring option off our bench as opposed to Goodwin/Saban Lee. I get how people feel about him, but his talent and production is undeniable and he'd be significantly better than anyone we currently can field off the bench.

** All players mentioned below are currently unsigned or unrestricted free agents that'd require no assets to trade for, only a roster spot and signing them. So we could easily add them.

SG - (Perimeter/ passing lane/ wing defense)
Marcus Garrett, Zylan Cheatham, Shaq Harrison, PJ Dozier, Javonte Green, Chase Audige (budget TH Tucker).

SF - ( perimeter/ switch defense)
(Again, not top tier options, but better realistic options than we currently have for our bench)
Stanley Johnson, Moe Harkless, Noah Vonleh, Justice Winslow, Lance Stephenson, Feron Hunt, Justin Champagnie, Justin Lewis, Theo Pinson, Dexter Dennis, Vincent Valerio-Bodon.

PF 4/5 options??? - (We need size, athleticism, physicality, tenacity, shotblocking/ vertical gravity- dunking)
For toughness, physicality, tenacity, edginess:
Demarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard, Vernon Carey Jr Donta Hall??

For size, explosive athleticism, vertical gravity, shotblocking/ dunking, etc:
Kai Jones (elite length/explosiveness/ shotblocking/dunking/mobility), Donta Hall (overseas buyout), Royce Hamm Jr (overseas buyout), Kostas Antetekoupo (defense/rim protection switch defense mobility) but little to no offensive tools, Mohammed Gueye ( long, mobile, high IQ, athletic, bouncy two way versatile defender,etc), Makur Makur (basically a thicker yet very fluid, mobile version of bol bol with really good defensive awareness, fundamentals, recovery and offensive two way versatility, Wenyen Gabriel ( High end mobility/athleticism/ defensive versatility). Maybe Nate Roberts (dollar store Dwight howard, but a chiseled 6'11 250 lbs with a 7-6 wingspan and good mobility/athleticism.

** Basic shotblocking/strong rim/post defense, rim running and rebounding:
Nerlens Noel, Norvelle Pelle, Kylor Kelly, Amidah Brimah?

So there are legit decent options IF we're doing our due diligence and looking to improve within our means.

Wow! What a breakdown! I'll get back to you by EOD.

[Mori Chu]

Really appreciate your post, '76. I agree with your opinion that PG is a problem for us. When I look at the nice lists of players you've provided, though, I have trouble figuring out how any of those guys would actually solve our problems. If we were to acquire one of those PGs, we'd have to actually start him for it to make a difference. Who are we benching? Beal? Allen?

It sort of feels like we're stuck with this roster, and we need to make internal improvements in order to actually get better. Some of that might just come with time, from playing together more. Some of it could come from a coaching change (firing Vogel).

I'm not sure that there's much we can do. We built this roster, and despite being really impressive on paper and having tons of firepower, it doesn't actually work that well on the court. I love that tweet that said that 4 of our 6 best players are shooting guards, and a fifth one is a 7' guy who plays like a shooting guard. That pretty much sums it up. We overloaded on shooting and scoring and didn't get enough playmaking, defense, strength, size, or speed.

[Flagrant Fowl]

You know we're pissed off when someone uses MS Word to construct a post about their frustrations with the team.

[Split T]

The only “pg” I think makes sense would be a point forward…we are way too small already to be adding a full time pg to a roster that starts 3 guards already and the only reliable bench player is also a guard.

[Furlanfufi]

I think any roster changes will result in the player coming to the team underperforming and pissing off everyone here.

The coaching should change before we change the roster.

[Superbone]

I think any roster changes will result in the player coming to the team underperforming and pissing off everyone here.

The coaching should change before we change the roster.

That's usually how it works.

[Sunsfanatic76]

Really appreciate your post, '76. I agree with your opinion that PG is a problem for us. When I look at the nice lists of players you've provided, though, I have trouble figuring out how any of those guys would actually solve our problems. If we were to acquire one of those PGs, we'd have to actually start him for it to make a difference. Who are we benching? Beal? Allen?

It sort of feels like we're stuck with this roster, and we need to make internal improvements in order to actually get better. Some of that might just come with time, from playing together more. Some of it could come from a coaching change (firing Vogel).

I'm not sure that there's much we can do. We built this roster, and despite being really impressive on paper and having tons of firepower, it doesn't actually work that well on the court. I love that tweet that said that 4 of our 6 best players are shooting guards, and a fifth one is a 7' guy who plays like a shooting guard. That pretty much sums it up. We overloaded on shooting and scoring and didn't get enough playmaking, defense, strength, size, or speed.

For sure there's currently no ideal solution given our current financial and asset restrictions. And I'm not in the camp to blow it up and try to trade Durant as a legitimate out either. I get the Beal dilemma in hyopothetically coming off the bench at his salary. Personally, I'd look to have Beal bring the ball up more at the one in order to move book back to his more natural position at the 2 in order to have both him and Durant as offensive focal points to create more spacing by spreading the floor and letting Beal drive to the rim with Book/ Durant flaring out on the wings for lateral gravity. I think Beal being really good at getting to the rim would just create better mismatches in an uptempo scheme. In this, I'd feel that with both Book and Durant flaring out to the wings and pulling defenders, it'd create more open pathways for Beal drives (to get him into a better rythm early on as well as create more pathways for players like Allen and/or Okogie to cut more. So the suggestion for point guard would be primarily to lead and setup the bench better to get the role players in a better and more productive rythm as well.

This guard could also help sustain offensive continuity when book or beal sits in order to reduce the apparent early exhaustion of Booker trying to carry BOTH the playmaking and scoring loads, allowing him to focus solely on his elite scoring gifts rather than having to split decisions on the fly. So predominantly, the guard addition would play with the 2nd unit, but could also offer situational minutes when our offense gets sloppy or lazy.

These other players I'm suggesting are just more simplified roles that address our current weaknesses better than our current underperforming options that we're hoping can somehow excel outside of their current skillsets. We all know what our current bench players range of abilities are/ capable of in their careers. We have a lot of low end one way talent that doesn't really address our glaring weaknesses. From my suggestions:

Kai Jones- Addresses more size, athleticism, vertical post threat, post/rim protection, size for switchability and lateral recovery defense.
D Cousins or Howard or maybe even Vernon Carey Jr- addresses rebounding/size/ dominant bench post player (If we want to go younger)?
RJ Nembhard, Rubio, or Raul Neto, etc?- Would address our need for a natural playmaker/game manager/ ballhandler for our bench needs to reduce the pressure on Booker (situationally) but also get/keep our bench in a good rythm. I agree with you that our options are extraordinarily limited, that's why I'm looking to identify the best dollar store options available for us absent of trade because of our lack of assets, etc.

[Sunsfanatic76]

You know we're pissed off when someone uses MS Word to construct a post about their frustrations with the team.

I'm honestly not overtly frustrated with our team that much because I never put our ceiling (as constructed) as a legitimate championship contender due to roster composition and our big threes (4 with Nurkic) extensive injury history, lack of overall depth forcing them to play heavy minutes early on already, and booker playing outside of his natural position and trying to do too much to offset our lack of a traditional point guard. I'm just taking my mind off things a bit by posting hypothetical avenues for improvement. Even if those avenues are minimal at best. But improvements one small step at a time if possible taking into account our very limited resources.

[Sunsfanatic76]

I think any roster changes will result in the player coming to the team underperforming and pissing off everyone here.

The coaching should change before we change the roster.

That's usually how it works.

And definitely the GM too for filling the roster with one way low end offensive players after hiring a defense oriented coach. It'd kinda be like hiring D'Antoni and then giving him a roster full of defense only players. The one thing that we can't do though is just sit stagnant and hope for some sort of magical solution from players that are who they are at this point in their careers I'd think.

[Sunsfanatic76]

https://youtube.com/shorts/yVLqHyaYCTU? ... pB0qVCAaY4

Bradley Beal talks about possibly playing more at point guard to help take some pressure off of Booker. Good to hear that they're beginning to recognize this Point guard issue and the premise of Beal manning the one to conserve Booker for the 4th quarter better. Good to hear!

[JeremyG]

We are joking about Mike D, right? He's way too old to coach anymore. Unless he was just a fill-in to finish the season while we look for the right candidate. OK, I talked myself into it.

I do absolutely agree that this team should be way better on offense and needs some personality.

Has Ishbia started looking for Jones' replacement yet?

He might actually be up for half a season as coach to get that championship he never got…if he really thinks he can turn this team around.

[SunsSince92]

Really appreciate your post, '76. I agree with your opinion that PG is a problem for us. When I look at the nice lists of players you've provided, though, I have trouble figuring out how any of those guys would actually solve our problems. If we were to acquire one of those PGs, we'd have to actually start him for it to make a difference. Who are we benching? Beal? Allen?

It sort of feels like we're stuck with this roster, and we need to make internal improvements in order to actually get better. Some of that might just come with time, from playing together more. Some of it could come from a coaching change (firing Vogel).

I'm not sure that there's much we can do. We built this roster, and despite being really impressive on paper and having tons of firepower, it doesn't actually work that well on the court. I love that tweet that said that 4 of our 6 best players are shooting guards, and a fifth one is a 7' guy who plays like a shooting guard. That pretty much sums it up. We overloaded on shooting and scoring and didn't get enough playmaking, defense, strength, size, or speed.

For sure there's currently no ideal solution given our current financial and asset restrictions. And I'm not in the camp to blow it up and try to trade Durant as a legitimate out either. I get the Beal dilemma in hyopothetically coming off the bench at his salary. Personally, I'd look to have Beal bring the ball up more at the one in order to move book back to his more natural position at the 2 in order to have both him and Durant as offensive focal points to create more spacing by spreading the floor and letting Beal drive to the rim with Book/ Durant flaring out on the wings for lateral gravity. I think Beal being really good at getting to the rim would just create better mismatches in an uptempo scheme. In this, I'd feel that with both Book and Durant flaring out to the wings and pulling defenders, it'd create more open pathways for Beal drives (to get him into a better rythm early on as well as create more pathways for players like Allen and/or Okogie to cut more. So the suggestion for point guard would be primarily to lead and setup the bench better to get the role players in a better and more productive rythm as well.

This guard could also help sustain offensive continuity when book or beal sits in order to reduce the apparent early exhaustion of Booker trying to carry BOTH the playmaking and scoring loads, allowing him to focus solely on his elite scoring gifts rather than having to split decisions on the fly. So predominantly, the guard addition would play with the 2nd unit, but could also offer situational minutes when our offense gets sloppy or lazy.

These other players I'm suggesting are just more simplified roles that address our current weaknesses better than our current underperforming options that we're hoping can somehow excel outside of their current skillsets. We all know what our current bench players range of abilities are/ capable of in their careers. We have a lot of low end one way talent that doesn't really address our glaring weaknesses. From my suggestions:

Kai Jones- Addresses more size, athleticism, vertical post threat, post/rim protection, size for switchability and lateral recovery defense.
D Cousins or Howard or maybe even Vernon Carey Jr- addresses rebounding/size/ dominant bench post player (If we want to go younger)?
RJ Nembhard, Rubio, or Raul Neto, etc?- Would address our need for a natural playmaker/game manager/ ballhandler for our bench needs to reduce the pressure on Booker (situationally) but also get/keep our bench in a good rythm. I agree with you that our options are extraordinarily limited, that's why I'm looking to identify the best dollar store options available for us absent of trade because of our lack of assets, etc.

'So predominantly, the guard addition would play with the 2nd unit, but could also offer situational minutes when our offense gets sloppy or lazy'

Who is that guard passing to in the second unit with Booker and Beal off the floor? Outside of Gordon we don't have a reliable scorer off the bench. If we're playing Durant with this guard in the second unit then I struggle to see how the offense would differ from what we're running now as it'd surely just devolve into more KD iso?

[SunsSince92]

https://youtube.com/shorts/yVLqHyaYCTU? ... pB0qVCAaY4

Bradley Beal talks about possibly playing more at point guard to help take some pressure off of Booker. Good to hear that they're beginning to recognize this Point guard issue and the premise of Beal manning the one to conserve Booker for the 4th quarter better. Good to hear!

It's good to hear they're looking to change things up. I'd always assumed the plan was to play Beal at PG from the get go and that the switch to Point Book was a result of Beal's injury at the start of the season.

I'm not sure it'll make a huge amount of difference if the offensive scheme is predicated on dribbling the air out of the ball for 15 seconds before lobbing it to KD or Book to bail us out in the remaining 9. At least there's an acknowledgement that we need to do something though.

[SunsSince92]

I've been thinking more on what might be causing the friction behind the scenes and why this team seems so disjointed.

I'm starting to wonder whether the slow pace of the offense is actually KD's preference (perhaps because of his age) and that Kevin Young is essentially complying with his wishes. Book is probably in the same camp on the basis that he doesn't want to go against KD, but this is at odds with what Vogel wants to do as he's repeatedly talked about us playing fast.

I can't think of any other reason why there would be such a stark disconnect between how Vogel says he wants us to play and how we're actually playing unless he's simply lost the locker room entirely.

[Superbone]

I've been thinking more on what might be causing the friction behind the scenes and why this team seems so disjointed.

I'm starting to wonder whether the slow pace of the offense is actually KD's preference (perhaps because of his age) and that Kevin Young is essentially complying with his wishes. Book is probably in the same camp on the basis that he doesn't want to go against KD, but this is at odds with what Vogel wants to do as he's repeatedly talked about us playing fast.

I can't think of any other reason why there would be such a stark disconnect between how Vogel says he wants us to play and how we're actually playing unless he's simply lost the locker room entirely.

Yeah, that’s a good point. Book consistently barely gets the ball over the half court line before the required 8 seconds. Almost like he’s making a point. He even had an 8 second violation in the Grizzlies game.

[Nodack]

Book channeling CP3?

I don’t think you blow up the team or fire the coach yet. Too early. Maybe a small trade. I think we let it ride for a season and see what happens and if it is a total failure then we do what needs to be done in the off season.

[O_Gardino]

Just my two cents on our issues (perspective mostly unchanged):

1- Point Guard IS a problem.

...

2- We need more size/athleticism/attitude/moxy

...

3- We're a soft and mentally fragile team

...

4- We need to run/push the pace

...

Players we SHOULD be looking at (outside of trades) from the unsigned pool/ G league/ overseas?

...

Nice breakdown. I'll give you two cents for each point - that's at least a ten cent post.

[Wally_West]

I don’t think there’s any friction between Book and KD at all. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if they do sleep overs and watch marathons of Chopped or pawn stars. In that recent interview they all did together, they were saying they play COD until 4 in morning together. They’re fine.