At this point, where is your level of care/concern for our team? In the present, as well as moving towards the future.

[Charlie Smithy!]

So yeah, this is a question that's been on my mind throughout this season and I think on a lot of yours as well. And I feel like there's plenty of context as to why.

So at any rate, how would you quantify/qualify your personal investment in the team at this point?

Feel free to expound and expand on why or why not, as well as what led you to this place.

And lastly, to try to sort of end this on a sort of positive bent, if you were in charge, how would you address your concerns? Roster/ coaching moves or adjustments here and there? Or perhaps a full on rebuild / reload/reboot? Inquiring minds want to know, and I know that Flagrante Fowl is one of them

[TOO]

I've reached peak apathy, fire the coach, trade the players, do whatever, I don't care. This team is lazy, entitled, and selfish. I trudged through years of rebuilding and terrible NBA players just to feel like I'm watching the same thing now. I'll try again next year.

[Split T]

I’ve missed the last 5 games so I’m currently feeling fine as the nuggets game was my last game I watched. In general I’ve tried to just cool off on this team. I’m not expecting anything from them. I’d be pleasantly surprised if we had any postseason success at this point.

I’m not writing them off though…teams have played poorly and found a way to flip the script at times. The 22 Celtics sucked until the 2nd half of the season and then they became the best team in the nba until they lost the finals to GSW. Miami was dead in the water and almost eliminated in the play-in last year then went to the finals…

There is a difference of course as those teams looked good for a significant time frame(Celtics for the whole 2nd half and the Heat in previous years). The Suns have looked good for single games or maybe a few games in a row, but we’ve consistently fallen back to earth.

I do think we’ll see the better version of this team more consistently in the playoffs, but that’s no guarantee we get anywhere. Our play-in matchup could be Dallas and then GS/LAL…we could easily lose both those games and be in the lottery, even if we play well.

Concerns are tough to address. We obviously don’t have many options but I’d really need to see this team in the playoffs first. But let’s say they flame out in either play-in or get steamrolled in round 1, here’s what I’d do:

I’m not actually in favor of switching the coach. I think this team needs some continuity. I could see perhaps breaking up the Vogel/Young duo and picking one. I’d definitely break that duo up if there is a divide in the locker room like we heard earlier. But unless a clear upgrade is available(Lue), I don’t think ditching the coach is going to be all that helpful(assuming Vogel/Young hasn’t completely lost the team).

Roster wise there really isn’t much we can do. I’d re-sign Royce and Grayson to whatever you can get them at(cannot afford to lose them or that salary slot) and try to do what you can with vet min signings. A real backup C would be nice. So would a backup pg. I’d love Bol back.

I’d keep the pick and draft best player available and by that I mean the player with the best value. I’d want to be able to move that player later if need be. But ideally we draft a difference maker for us. I haven’t looked at the draft at all though, so I don’t have any real insight there.

As much as I’ve loved Nurk, he would have to be looked at as a trade chip. If we could add a high level wing defender with size, you absolutely have to do it. Grayson and Royce would also be trade chips at the deadline if you can upgrade them using your now 1 tradable 1st.


I feel like we are essentially stuck with the Book/KD/Beal trio for now though. I don’t see a way to break that up…my only thought would be if Beal was agreeable to waiving the NTC…I think you could explore that route for sure.

[iLLmatic]

I’m more looking forward to the Cardinal’s draft than the Sun’s possible play in/playoffs if that gives you any idea where my head is.

[Split T]

I’m more looking forward to the Cardinal’s draft than the Sun’s possible play in/playoffs if that gives you any idea where my head is.

MHJ or trade back with Minny?

[specialsauce]

Where's the option for "as high as it gets , 10/10"

[JeremyG]

I basically feel like everyone else does, except I've felt that way ever since September's Big Event. As soon as the Big Event happened, I said that we had no chance of winning the championship, so I've pretty much had low expectations the whole season. Still depressing to see it unfold, though.

I voted first round exit in the other thread, which would coincidentally fit our previous Finals timeline:

1993: Finals
1994: Second round
1995: Second round
1996 (after breaking the team apart): First round

2021: Finals
2022: Second round
2023: Second round
2024 (after breaking the team apart): First round

From there it's...blow it up completely? Who knows.

[Superbone]

It’s been a horrible transition from the previous couple seasons. I understand why Ishbia did it but it has not worked out. Sarver is probably laughing all the way to the bank. This is a team of mercenaries without any passion or camaraderie. My expectations have steadily declined from opening tip until now.

What would I do in the off-season? New coach. See what I could get for Durant. Keep Book, Beal, Allen, Nurk, O’Neale, Bol, maybe Okogie for defensive purposes. Retool the rest. Find a solid PG and PF or two. Concentrate on 3 and D guys.

[JeremyG]

You know it’s bad when even ‘Bone has lost hope.

[iLLmatic]

I’m more looking forward to the Cardinal’s draft than the Sun’s possible play in/playoffs if that gives you any idea where my head is.

MHJ or trade back with Minny?

That’s a tough one. I say stand pat and take MHJ if he’s truly the prospect everyone says he is.

[Mori Chu]

I think I'm at the point where I wish we could trade KD. He's been great for us this season, but he's such a valuable asset that we could use to get something that is a better fit for this roster. I'd much rather trade Beal, but nobody is going to take him with that contract. I'd try to trade KD for either a PG or a PF and picks/younglings. I don't think the Suns will do that, though.

In terms of things the Suns will/could actually do, although this roster is deeply flawed, bringing back most of the same team and having some continuity and time to grow as a team could be really good for us. I think I'd try to keep Grayson Allen and Royce O'Neale at whatever price the market commands. Keep Okogie, Bol, guys who are plus defenders. Get rid of guys who are offense-only like Eric Gordon, Little, Damion Lee. Bring in guys who can dribble, pass, and defend. We already have plenty of shooting.

I'd fire Vogel. I just said I want some continuity, but I mean that about the players, not his coaching. We've been awful on both sides of the court this year, and a lot of that is coaching. I also don't like Kevin Young. My dream scenario is that the Clips lose in Round 1 and they stupidly fire Ty Lue and we scoop him up.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I generally don't reply to this kind of stuff because it feels like being asked to pick winning lottery numbers. But since I was called out by name, you all know who to blame for these rambling thoughts.

My level of care never changes. Even when this team was a dumpster fire years ago, I still watched as much as I could. I only missed about 10 days of this current season last month when I was in Thailand and that wasn't for a lack of trying to catch the games. That's a different story for my memoir which no one wants to pay to read.

Only one team wins the title every season and the Suns almost never have one of the most dominant players in the league that's often required to win the title. I generally have a good feel for the league by the beginning of March and use it recalibrate my expectations for the Suns. I guess I'm good at keeping things in perspective for those reasons. At least the unnecessary amount of NBA content I consume is good for something. That also keeps me somewhat content in knowing that lucky breaks are needed to win the title and we won't know which team gets them until they happen.

I'm not much concerned because my pre-season expectations would've been significantly different with the foresight of knowing this team wouldn't be fully healthy for more than 50% of the regular season. Of course there are issues when they've played together, but I've never expected them to figure it all out right away. I realize that's a convenient excuse for everyone, but it's not without merit and I'd have the same opinion if another team were in the same situation.

I think it was about two months ago when I read something about Ishbia claiming this group has always been viewed as a 2 year project. I can't recall the source, so there's a small chance it was my imagination. Regardless, I think that's the right approach, especially given the health instability and roster turnover within the last 6 months. That's not to say I've not been frustrated with their bad habits, but again, I don't want my fandom to interfere with objectivity. Let's see how this team performs in the playoffs and give them a summer of continuity before making a massive overhaul. Changing everything again after less than a full calendar year would be a huge red flag from Ishbia in my eyes. However, I wonder if he'll make a coaching change if Booker and KD don't stand by Vogel's staff in private. As annoying as it is, he'd probably have to listen to them because that's how the league works. We'll likely never know if that's the case, but there will be plenty of speculation. There's a good chance I'll be holding my breath on this one in a couple of months.

I think it's way too soon to get into this next part about the roster, but WTF?, I have half an hour to kill.

If they were to make a big roster move, I still think Beal needs to be the first option to explore. He takes up way too much of the cap for his role if this team isn't close (WCF) to a winning title. I still likely wouldn't be eager to make that move until Summer 2025.

Trading Booker is a complete non-starter and that should be obvious to everyone here. It would be ripping the soul out of the team just to put it in the hands of whom exactly? Everyone in the league takes note of that type of ownership behavior and I guarantee it would be correctly mocked by everyone. I know a lot of people are angry and frustrated when they come up with that idea while watching this team look incompetent or lazy, so I'm trying my best to be patient and not engage with that. It's just dumb and I'll leave it at that.

Trading KD doesn't really make sense unless he asks for it. He's due about $100M in the next two seasons and clearly can't carry a team for a full season and deep playoff run at this point in his career. The Suns would be worse off for the next two years during Booker's prime with any returning package instead of just keeping KD. I also think some people here overestimate his market value. He's still great and will be 2nd team All-NBA at a minimum, but he's not at the top of the pyramid anymore even though he's earning that kind of salary. Why would a team send a bunch of good stuff for KD 2 years after the Suns did it and just watched it not win them a title? Maybe he could be traded at the deadline of the 2025-26 season during the last year of his contract. Still seems unlikely to me.

I like Nurkic and this team absolutely needs someone physical in the middle to make up for all of the finesse on the perimeter, but I wouldn't complain if his contract can be replaced by someone younger. My expectations are low that James Jones would be willing to find a young player to fill that role, so I'm just waiting to see if they do anything with that role at all. Now I'd bet on Nurkic sticking around. Speaking of James Jones, that's a change I think to be more likely than most, but I'm skeptical of the impact because Ishbia appears to be the de facto GM at this point. There's more on that bone, but I don't want to put more thought into it now. That's better content for my offseason posts which are free but still no one wants to read.

Greyson Allen has to be re-signed for all the cap reasons everyone has already discussed. He's a proven commodity and will still have solid market value at his max contract level. I guess mostly the same could be said for Royce O'Neale, but I'm not all that attached to Royce. He was always just the best of a bunch of mediocre choices at the trade deadline besides the Miles Bridges pipe dream.

They need to find a playable ballhandler for the bench, ideally someone with some fucking juice on the ball. Please, no more geriatric Eric Gordon, TJ Warren types. I know some people are thinking, "WhAt aBoUt CaM PaYnE?!?" and to that I say "What about him?" He's not consistently good enough and that's been clear for the past two seasons. Someone needs to do some damn scouting in the organization and dig up a gem for that role kind of like when they found Payne before he was paid.

I don't mind if it's just the minimum to keep Bol Bol because why not? He's well surpassed my expectations and KD seems to have really helped him become playable in the league. He's an 8th man at best. I don't hate Eubanks like most Suns fans, but I also realize he's probably not developing his skillset any more so getting someone younger with upside would be an attractive replacement.

TL;DR - Blame Charlie.

[Split T]

For those suggesting trading KD, how would you sell that to Booker? I think trading KD is a terrible idea. He won’t return nearly the same value we traded him for and you might just piss off the best player in franchise history.

I think you have to give this team another chance. Mostly because we don’t have much of a choice, but also because I think it’s clear that continuity matters.

Denver is probably the front runner, at least in the west, and they’ve had the same core together now for 3-4 years. Minnesota made a huge trade last year and they weren’t very good…they made no major changes and have all of a sudden been a 1 seed contender this year. Boston is consistently at the top of the East and have had Brown/Tatum together for 6-7 years now.

Our big 3 has still only played like 25ish games together. Yes you would have expected more than what they’ve shown. Still, giving up this early on what was a massive all-in swing would be very dumb. To do what, retool around Booker? There’s no world trading Booker or KD turns this team into a contender. Beal? Maybe, but you gotta get him on board with it and I don’t see an obvious candidate that would appease all 3 parties. I believe Beal moved his entire family to Phoenix, he still has the NTC, and he stuck it out in Washington a lot longer than most expected…I think he’s here for the long haul.

So we’ve got this season and the next two with Beal/Book/KD imo. The job is to move the other pieces around to put the best team you can together.

[Carno]

I think a lot of takes this season have been overly reactionary and pessimistic (and I admit I learn toward the cup being half full). Thus far this team has not performed to expectations for sure. But, I don't believe it can't change. This team was made for the playoffs where the Big <=3 will be on the court more and playing time for the crappy bench (*cough* Saben Lee is not an NBA player) will be minimized/non-existent. Let's see how the playoffs go, and if a healthy team can't succeed, evaluate roster/management changes at that time. Knee jerk reactions are not helpful.

I also think continuity is a real thing. I would wait until the end of next season before making any major changes. It helps knowing that the team can't really make any major changes anyway. Rebuilding isn't even an option since they don't own their draft for the next several seasons (yes maybe they can replenish draft picks by trading the Big <=3). There is no real choice but to keep going.

Here are some tweaks I WOULD like to see:
1. More/quicker ball movement in the offense. Right now, when the defense doubles the stars, the ball is not moving fast enough to the open player for the open shot.
2. More pace. The team does really well when they push the ball. Booker needs to stop barely getting the ball over half court before the 8 second count only to barely cross it and stop and wait for the inevitable blitz (um.. pass or dribble out before it gets there?).
3. Defensive intensity. The lack of rotation to the open corner 3 is very obvious. STOP helping so much off the corner 3 (why do players do this?? It's not just the Suns). Despite its lack of imagination and pace, the offense has been VERY good. It's really the defense that has let them down in their recent losses.

[The Bobster]

I am at my lowest level of care since I became a fan in 1976.

[In2ition]

I am at my lowest level of care since I became a fan in 1976.

I've only been a fan since 1989, but I think I feel the same way.

[Democritus]

I just think our group doesn't want to play for Vogel. They are not 100% commited and too many games are evidence here.
Maybe we just need another group of Coaches. Someone like MikeD?

Btw I still care, the Suns are big part of my daily rutine unfortunately.

[Scarecrow33]

I'm concerned because I don't know why they continue to play like crap with only brief flashes of competence.

I wasn't too concerned for the first half because Big-3-Injuries and all that. But I was bothered because ALL these guys we brought in to help, (except for Grayson, and to a lesser extent Gordon & Bol) failed to thrive and made no difference at all.

How did so many guys who have played at a high level for at least 5 to 10 years, (counting pre-NBA) completely forget how to play basketball at the NBA level? I feel like there are personnel issues we don't hear about. I have no confidence they will improve in the remainder of the season. No expectation of playoff success and no idea how to fix this going forward.

Really hope to be proven wrong.

[Mori Chu]

I am at my lowest level of care since I became a fan in 1976.

I get you, but I don't feel this way. The Suns were much worse to watch during the Dragic/Bledsoe/IT days, the Bender/Chriss era, and several other stretches. This team is a huge disappointment, but we're still 39-29 and going to the playoffs. It's been much worse than this.

I still like to watch the games. I'm still trying to be patient and optimistic and hope for the team to figure some things out. And I really like the comparison to the Timberwolves; last year they made a huge "all-in" trade including giving up 5 1sts, and it didn't really work, and everybody was bagging on them. Then the following year, this year, they bring back almost entirely the same team with a few tweaks, and they're one of the top teams in the West. That's the best-case scenario for us, that we keep most of the core of this team together and come back next year with much better continuity, team chemistry, and mutual understanding. I'm a little skeptical, but I will still hope for that to happen.

[The Bobster]

I am at my lowest level of care since I became a fan in 1976.

I've only been a fan since 1989, but I think I feel the same way.

It was pretty bad during the 1987 drug scandal, but at least I had faith that Colangelo could clean things up eventually, and he did. Now, I don't have that same faith in the Suns leadership. I know Ishbia is willing to spend money, but I don't think he and Jones know how to spend it wisely.