Phoenix Suns 2014: Offseason Moves

[Wally_West]

You just don't get it, 'bone.

OK, oh great one.

If they package picks to get Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh or Dante Exum, that's great value, and I'd have no problem with it. That's getting the most out of your picks. But if they package 14 and 18 for say pick 10, that's terrible value, because there isn't a significant difference between drafting at 10 and drafting at 14.

So, maybe the former is the plan. Why don't you see what happens before you freak out? The picks could also be packaged to get a known quantity like how Philly traded Jrue Holiday last year for picks.

INF kind of sound likes someone who is reluctant to start dating again because he has been burned too many times and when someone good finally comes along, he is skeptical. And why wouldn’t he be? He has heard and seen this song and dance before. He just doesn’t want to get hurt again. So I understand, he just doesn’t want to meet another Victoria…that bitch.

[INFORMER]

You just don't get it, 'bone.

OK, oh great one.

I didn't mean that in a condescending way. I was just stating you were missing why I am frustrated.

If they package picks to get Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh or Dante Exum, that's great value, and I'd have no problem with it. That's getting the most out of your picks. But if they package 14 and 18 for say pick 10, that's terrible value, because there isn't a significant difference between drafting at 10 and drafting at 14.

So, maybe the former is the plan. Why don't you see what happens before you freak out? The picks could also be packaged to get a known quantity like how Philly traded Jrue Holiday last year for picks.

Well first, I don't think New Orleans made a good deal. So that's a pretty poor example. Second, that's nice that getting one of those prospects might be the plan of the front office, but that's easier said than done. The front office can't just will a deal to happen.

And even if that is the "plan" it doesn't change the fact that front office has made a point to try to avoid bringing in a certain number of rookies, and that's influencing their decisions. That just isn't a wise stance and that's not what I want driving a front office of a team that isn't even a contender.

[INFORMER]

Second, I don't think he's worth more due to the fact that he doesn't really make a team better.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, he can't carry a team by himself. Sure, he isn't a go-to player. But he doesn't make a team better? That's just silly.

[SwingMan]

Second, I don't think he's worth more due to the fact that he doesn't really make a team better.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, he can't carry a team by himself. Sure, he isn't a go-to player. But he doesn't make a team better? That's just silly.

No, Kevin Love doesn't make a team better - one might see differently if they merely added his stats to their team's roster, but he plays like an individual, if that makes any sense.

His skills might look like he fits the team, but I'm not sold one bit - especially at the cost of more than I previously mentioned. We're better served concentrating on moving up in the draft.

[SDC]

I know next to nothing about the prospects coming out this year. So let me ask -- how much would you be willing to give up for a Kevin Love who cannot extend his contract per league rules?

I'd offer Markieff (who'd be out of a position), Marcus, the T-Wolves pick and the Pacers pick this year. Looking at the history of teams that have depleted their rosters for a star, you seem to have more Carmelo to NY results than Harden to Houston results. I would rather trade the assets up for a higher pick this year, save cap space for next year and try to grab Love next summer.

The long and short of it is that Minny has no leverage, and I am looking at these huge packages being thrown around for Love as something unreasonable. Better not to have Love at that price. Am I crazy?

the suns have to give up frye in a package deal for love. they are simlar type players.

[SDC]

The long and short of it is that Minny has no leverage, and I am looking at these huge packages being thrown around for Love as something unreasonable. Better not to have Love at that price. Am I crazy?

Frye, Green our #14 and returning their pick owed us from the Wesley Johnson deal. Any more & they can kiss off.

I know Minny's clock is running and they will have to trade him, so in that sense, they don't have infinite leverage. But tons of teams want to trade for Kevin Love, so in that regard, they has plenty of leverage. They don't have to take our substandard hypothetical offer if they have a better one on the table. And I guarantee you that several teams can and will make better offers than the ones quoted above.

Basically if you want Kevin Love to be a Sun, you have to offer them pretty much anything they want from our current assets other than Dragic and maybe Bledsoe. It's fine if you don't want to do that, but that's the sort of thinking it's going to take to come up with a deal they'd take.

You also have to think about it from their perspective a bit. Why in the world would they want Channing Frye or Gerald Green? This trade constitutes a blow-up, a rebuild, for them. They don't want veterans. They want picks, young players, and flexibility.

that's why you have to give up Len too in that potential deal.

[Superbone]

You just don't get it, 'bone.

OK, oh great one.

I didn't mean that in a condescending way. I was just stating you were missing why I am frustrated.

Gotcha. You're still great.

[Shabazz]

Second, I don't think he's worth more due to the fact that he doesn't really make a team better.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, he can't carry a team by himself. Sure, he isn't a go-to player. But he doesn't make a team better? That's just silly.

No, Kevin Love doesn't make a team better - one might see differently if they merely added his stats to their team's roster, but he plays like an individual, if that makes any sense.

His skills might look like he fits the team, but I'm not sold one bit - especially at the cost of more than I previously mentioned. We're better served concentrating on moving up in the draft.

Um, he's a top 6 player in the league. It's not his fault he's had to play with awful players his entire career.

If you mean he "doesn't make his teammates better," that's usually nonsense anyways. And if you mean he can't take a team to the playoffs on his own, there's only two of those guys in the league.

Give love some good teammates and the narrative will change quickly. Peak Kobe and peak Garnett also missed the playoffs when they had crappy supporting casts.

[SwingMan]

Second, I don't think he's worth more due to the fact that he doesn't really make a team better.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, he can't carry a team by himself. Sure, he isn't a go-to player. But he doesn't make a team better? That's just silly.

No, Kevin Love doesn't make a team better - one might see differently if they merely added his stats to their team's roster, but he plays like an individual, if that makes any sense.

His skills might look like he fits the team, but I'm not sold one bit - especially at the cost of more than I previously mentioned. We're better served concentrating on moving up in the draft.

Um, he's a top 6 player in the league. It's not his fault he's had to play with awful players his entire career.

If you mean he "doesn't make his teammates better," that's usually nonsense anyways. And if you mean he can't take a team to the playoffs on his own, there's only two of those guys in the league.

Give love some good teammates and the narrative will change quickly. Peak Kobe and peak Garnett also missed the playoffs when they had crappy supporting casts.

Whoa - dander down, dude. And try watching some game film as opposed to box scores - if you did, you'd realize that, in terms of elevating a team, Love is more Carmelo Anthony than Charles Barkley.

Also - define "peak" Bryant & "peak" Garnett so everyone can see exactly how you're lying in the above post.....

[Shabazz]

I watch plenty of game film and I've watched plenty of Kevin Love. I didn't even mention any stats.

For peak Garnett, I'd say the one that missed the playoffs for 3 years in a row from ages 28-30, when he averaged 22-13-5 and was all NBA defense 1st or second team was pretty good.

Kobe was pretty close to his peak when he missed the playoffs in 04-05 and wasn't able to do much in the postseason the following two years without help.

[virtual9mm]

Mori -- agreed that someone can (and actually already did) offer a much nicer deal. Just don't think that the Suns should do it.

Inf -- agree as well that the offer is pretty much a lowball, I guess I meant that would be what I would be willing to offer.

Swingy -- if the T-Pups make a deal with Sacramento for the package they are offering , we swoop in on Love next year.

[SwingMan]

I watch plenty of game film and I've watched plenty of Kevin Love. I didn't even mention any stats.

For peak Garnett, I'd say the one that missed the playoffs for 3 years in a row from ages 28-30, when he averaged 22-13-5 and was all NBA defense 1st or second team was pretty good.

Kobe was pretty close to his peak when he missed the playoffs in 04-05 and wasn't able to do much in the postseason the following two years without help.

Then what does that say about Kevin Love, whose team has missed more years in the playoffs than those two combined?

He's a "top 6" volume guy who gets his numbers on shit teams while doing next to nothing to help his team overall - again, more Carmelo Anthony than Charles Barkley. Granted - Minnesota's always been a quagmire, but little, if any, progress has even been made with Kevin Love as its star.

I'm not giving up a star-worthy package for a year's rental on a sub-par star at best.

[INFORMER]

Swing, you keep imploring people to look at game film, when it's you that seems to have no concept of Love's game. It seems like you're entire argument is "Love hasn't made the playoffs, ergo, he doesn't make a team better." That's about as superficial as it gets.

And let's really be accurate here. Love has been in the league for six seasons. His first two years, he wasn't even a full-time starter. Another one of those six seasons he only played 18 games due to injury. So at best, you have only three seasons where you can blame failing to make the playoffs on him, if you want to ignore coaching and the quality of his teammates. And he's not even 26 yet.

The Suns just won 49 games with Channing Frye starting at power forward. If you can't see that putting Kevin Love (a superior rebounder, passer, and more consistent scorer/shooter) in his place would significantly improve this team, then I don't see how one wouldn't call into question how much you know about basketball.

[SwingMan]

Swing, you keep imploring people to look at game film, when it's you that seems to have no concept of Love's game. It seems like you're entire argument is "Love hasn't made the playoffs, ergo, he doesn't make a team better." That's about as superficial as it gets.

And let's really be accurate here. Love has been in the league for six seasons. His first two years, he wasn't even a full-time starter. Another one of those six seasons he only played 18 games due to injury. So at best, you have only three seasons where you can blame failing to make the playoffs on him, if you want to ignore coaching and the quality of his teammates. And he's not even 26 yet.

The Suns just won 49 games with Channing Frye starting at power forward. If you can't see that putting Kevin Love (a superior rebounder, passer, and more consistent scorer/shooter) in his place would significantly improve this team, then I don't see how one wouldn't call into question how much you know about basketball.

First, I never said Love wouldn't improve the team replacing Frye (which isn't saying much) - matter of fact, I said early on he'd be a cog here. Not a star, but a cog. His shots and, likely, minutes would take a serious hit here. His biggest contribution to the team would be rebounding and bullet outlet passing.

Second, what progress has Love helped Minnesota make? Fuck the playoffs, I'm talking overall record here. They've made a 23 game improvement the last 4 seasons, with Adelman in there for the last 3 (with a .16 percent dip from 2011-2012 when Love missed 64 games in 2012-2013) - we made that in a single season without a superstar and injuries to Bledsoe & Plumlee with a rookie coach.

I'm not saying he's not worth having - I'm saying he's not worth giving up half the roster and a shitload of future assets for. Again - Frye, Green, #14 and their 1st rounder owed us in the Wesley Johnson trade or they can kiss my ass. Any more than that & we're better served focusing on moving up in the draft for Vonleh or Gordon.

[Ring_Wanted]

That's a laughable offer, period. Empty stats or otherwise.

[SwingMan]

That's a laughable offer, period. Empty stats or otherwise.

Really?

You'd give half the team and our remaining picks for a one year rental, then? Because, if so, we'll be a shit enough team that guarantees he walks after 2014-2015.

Let's hear/see your offer again, cool?

[Ring_Wanted]

I think you are overlooking Goran's troubles handling the ball when things get hot. Sometimes he has to face double teams or a certain type of defender and he'll pick up his dribble too soon. In my opinion he needs someone with real PG handles, plus relevant perimeter defense.

I think you're overstating the issue.

I might be, but I've seen it enough times to know that it is a flaw in Goran's game, and one that gets mitigated a lot with a player like Bledsoe by his side, who for these purposes runs circles around the likes of Avery Bradley or catch and shoot guards.

[Ring_Wanted]

That's a laughable offer, period. Empty stats or otherwise.

Really?

You'd give half the team and our remaining picks for a one year rental, then? Because, if so, we'll be a shit enough team that guarantees he walks after 2014-2015.

Let's hear/see your offer again, cool?

Expiring role players, a #14(typed 27) and a 1stR pick they control anyway doesn't even deserve to be called an offer. Anyway, there is enough room between that and giving up 'half the team and the remaining picks'. At the very least you have to put rookie contracts and real draft assets on the table, if you are serious about getting him. If you are not because you don't like the player or think he won't stay, that's a different issue. In that case you are better off just staying away from Love and pursuing other scenarios instead of coming up with embarrasing 'deals'.

[SwingMan]

That's a laughable offer, period. Empty stats or otherwise.

Really?

You'd give half the team and our remaining picks for a one year rental, then? Because, if so, we'll be a shit enough team that guarantees he walks after 2014-2015.

Let's hear/see your offer again, cool?

Expiring role players, a #27 and a 1stR pick they control anyway doesn't even deserve to be called an offer. Anyway, there is enough room between that and giving up 'half the team and the remaining picks'. At the very least you have to put rookie contracts and real draft assets on the table, if you are serious about getting him. If you are not because you don't like the player or think he won't stay, that's a different issue. In that case you are better off just staying away from Love and pursuing other scenarios instead of coming up with embarrasing 'deals'.

And who are the "expiring role players"?

I clearly gave an ultimatum earlier: Either they take the deal or they take a flying fuck at a rolling donut while we focus on moving up in the draft to grab Vonleh or Gordon. I even stated that we'd be better off concentrating on the draft. Have you been following this discussion at all?

EDIT: I offered #14, not #27 - please look back in the discussion.....

[SwingMan]

Mori -- agreed that someone can (and actually already did) offer a much nicer deal. Just don't think that the Suns should do it.

Inf -- agree as well that the offer is pretty much a lowball, I guess I meant that would be what I would be willing to offer.

Swingy -- if the T-Pups make a deal with Sacramento for the package they are offering , we swoop in on Love next year.

I'm not sold on Kevin Love at all though, v9 - for the 4th or 5th time in this thread alone, I think we're better off focusing on moving up in the draft to grab Vonleh or Gordon.