Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:41 pm

I liked the movie and think most of the criticisms of it are way overblown.

(I'm going to discuss plot spoilers and not going to put them in a spoiler tag. The movie's been out for a month. Don't read if you haven't seen it.)

I do agree that it was pretty cheesy how Leia can float through space using The Force. That was the worst scene for me. But whatever; it didn't kill the movie. I also didn't like some of the early parts' tone, like where Poe is mocking the imperial general guy ("What was that? Trying to reach General ___ here. Can't hear you" etc.) But I liked the moral ambiguities they put into the story, how not everybody was 100% good or evil. I liked how arms dealers were selling weapons to both sides.

I also liked how they told a message about brains over brawn, about how those who rush in wanting to shoot lasers and blow things up often make things worse or just get themselves killed. They show this with Poe vs. purple hair Laura Dern and their plans, and they show it again later with Finn about to harikari himself but Rose saves him. They send a generally feminist message on multiple levels, that the women in the story often have the right ideas and plans, and that the foolhardy men who rush into danger often have the wrong idea.

I felt that the movie had some political undertones as well related to modern US politics. The Rose line about not fighting against what you hate, but fighting for what you love, really felt like a message to progressives about how to resist Trump. Maybe I'm just a politics junkie who views everything through that lens.

It was interesting how many of the elements from The Force Awakens were just completely trashed and discarded in this movie. Kylo's mask? It's dumb; break it. Snoke, master villain? Meh; kill him off. Rey hands saber to Luke? Meh, he just chucks it. Rey's parents' identity is important? Nah, they're nobody. Romantic tension with Rey and Finn? Nah; now it's Finn+Rose and Rey+Kylo. On and on. You really get the sense that Rian Johnson didn't like the overall plan that JJ Abrams set out in The Force Awakens and wanted to significantly change the direction. In almost every case I think Johnson's changes were for the better.

Overall I thought the story, dialogue, acting, etc. were really strong. I would put this right behind the original trilogy and ahead of The Force Awakens, which (like Indy says) just felt like a blatant unapologetic copy of the original Star Wars to me, which I found really disappointing. I rewatched TFA a few weeks ago in prep for TLJ and it really disappointed me on the second viewing. TLJ was a much better film IMO and is up there with RotJ for me. My rough ordering is:

5 - The Empire Strikes Back
4 - A New Hope
6 - Return of the Jedi
8 - The Last Jedi
7 - The Force Awakens
... (wide chasm) ...
3 - Revenge of the Sith
X - Rogue One (I really dislike this one; that's a subject for another day)
2 - Attack of the Clones
1 - The Phantom Menace

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Superbone
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Superbone » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:51 pm

Split T wrote:Mark originally said he had issues with how they portrayed Luke, but he has since changed that stance
AKA a gag order.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by In2ition » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:40 pm

I liked how the Resistance couldn't get a message out to the universe about how they were about to be annihilated, but could get a message to Maz Kanata. I also liked how when a message went out, it was ... crickets, even though every star system in the galaxy had a legitimate beef with the First Order because of them destroying the entire Haznian system and representatives from all corners of the galaxy.

I also liked how when a starship ran out of fuel, it would just fall in space. Or a hyperbolic arc energy weapon in space. I liked how Rose and Finn went on a mission to the evil Vegas, only to prioritize releasing the enslaved horse things, which probably get captured in another 20 minutes, but not the enslaved kids that take care of those horse things. Or how they decided to park on the beach and sent to jail for said parking violation. Or how they happened to find yet another 'only other hacker in the universe' to get through the First Order's shields in their cell.

I loved how the bomber needed a remote control to drop gravity bombs and how Rose's sister was on her back while the bomber bay doors were open without her getting sucked into space and the remote falls past her laying there, yet she is able to twist around and catch it(guessing the rate of gravity on the ship was around 10 meters per second per second). I liked how bb8 was the badest fighter in the resistance, where he was able to disarm and tie up 3 guards without having any known weapons.

I loved how Vice Admiral Holdo didn't think Poe was worthy of informing him of her plan, but could have just blew up all the First Order ships with a simultaneous light speed jump maneuver aimed at all the large star destroyers.
Let's Go! Enough of this tanking crap. It's time to win.

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Superbone
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Superbone » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:17 pm

I get the feeling you didn't like or love ANY of that stuff!
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In2ition
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by In2ition » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 pm

Superbone wrote:I get the feeling you didn't like or love ANY of that stuff!
I really need to work on my writing tone.
Let's Go! Enough of this tanking crap. It's time to win.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:09 am

For me the biggest flaw in the story is the fact that the entire Finn/Rose plot is completely unnecessary. They accomplish nothing and basically their entire arc ends up being a waste of time. Oops. Way to undermine your B-story, guys.

This doesn't make me dislike the film, but I think they messed up here. The B-story should have had more relevance to the overall plot and outcome of the movie. I get that it helped plant a seed of rebellion in the minds of the young kids or whatever, but that's too vague and distant to make it a rewarding story arc.

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Split T
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Split T » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:42 am

I read one explanation that said it was all about Finn truly becoming a part of the rebellion. In TFA he showed he was a good guy, but he was still trying to just get away from The First Order and wasn't overly concerned with the rebellion. He only went to the starkiller base to save Rey. He tried to leave the rebellion again in TLJ to save Rey. The whole Rose-Finn story helped Finn see the destructive power of the First Order from another side and committed him to being a part of the rebellion. When Phasma calls him scum, he replies, "yeah, Rebel scum!"

I agree that it would have been nice if it was more relevant to the eventual outcome.

My biggest issue was why didn't Vice Admiral Holdo tell anyone what her plan was. There was no good explanation for that, teaching a upstart fighter pilot a lesson on leadership when your entire resistance is hours away from being completely wiped out is not exactly a good idea.

Overall I really liked the movie, I thought it was on par with Rogue One and The Force Awakens. I have never been overly attached to the originals, they're before my time and I didn't grow up watching them, and while I appreciate them, I don't have any issue with them moving away from them.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:40 pm

^ From a character development perspective, I get why it advanced Finn to have his B-story in TLJ. But from a story perspective, it just accomplished nothing and contributed nothing to the movie's story outcome. That was a big mistake IMO. Forgivable, but oh well.

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Shabazz
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Shabazz » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:43 pm

How about the fact that Poe was indirectly responsible for the death of nearly all the rebels? In the first scene, his bomber plan costs a good portion of them. Then he sends Finn and Rose to get the hacker who ends up betraying them which leads to the First Order destroying just about all of the evacuating pods?

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In2ition
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by In2ition » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:22 am

It can be argued that Finn and Rose screwed up the mission to space Monte Carlo. Or Holdo was responsible for the deaths after space Mary Poppins happens.
Let's Go! Enough of this tanking crap. It's time to win.

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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:47 am

I agree that the space leia stuff was bad, and the holdo stuff. Although I can't think of another big-budget fantasy movie that doesn't have similar holes.

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jonh
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by jonh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:11 pm

Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:33 am

jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.

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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:35 am

Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan
I think that is the crux of it. People see a character they grew up loving (and sometimes seeing themselves as), so when he does something they don't like that makes them question how 'good' he is, it is troublesome.

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jonh
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by jonh » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:22 pm

Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm

jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
Well, Episodes 1-3 were all written after the fact to try and reinforce what happened in 4-6. I think it is a bit revisionist history to say that 4-6 all revolve around The Emperor. Snoke appeared more in 7 and 8 than Palpatine in 4 and 5, and I would never say 7/8 revolved around Snoke.

But to answer your other question, the US has been "fighting a war on terror" for the entire lives of nearly 100M americans. And it is the longest war in our country's history. That might be a big reason they did a story arc about never-ending, cyclical wars, that don't make much of a difference in the balance of one side or the other over generations.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 pm

Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
Well, Episodes 1-3 were all written after the fact to try and reinforce what happened in 4-6. I think it is a bit revisionist history to say that 4-6 all revolve around The Emperor. Snoke appeared more in 7 and 8 than Palpatine in 4 and 5, and I would never say 7/8 revolved around Snoke.

But to answer your other question, the US has been "fighting a war on terror" for the entire lives of nearly 100M americans. And it is the longest war in our country's history. That might be a big reason they did a story arc about never-ending, cyclical wars, that don't make much of a difference in the balance of one side or the other over generations.
How about the "War on Drugs"? What would have happened if the US never had a war on terror after 9/11? Purely a hypothetical question, as I have no idea.
Let's Go! Enough of this tanking crap. It's time to win.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by jonh » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
Well, Episodes 1-3 were all written after the fact to try and reinforce what happened in 4-6. I think it is a bit revisionist history to say that 4-6 all revolve around The Emperor. Snoke appeared more in 7 and 8 than Palpatine in 4 and 5, and I would never say 7/8 revolved around Snoke.

But to answer your other question, the US has been "fighting a war on terror" for the entire lives of nearly 100M americans. And it is the longest war in our country's history. That might be a big reason they did a story arc about never-ending, cyclical wars, that don't make much of a difference in the balance of one side or the other over generations.
Im not saying that endless wars don't happen. However, the war(s) in episodes 1-6 are not framed to be an endless war. One of the by unfortunate by products (for me) in the framing of 7 and 8, is that there is a sense that war is both inevitable and potentially unending, both of which are themes that do not seem to me to be Star Wars themes.

But I recognize that we can have different opinions about this. If I saw this movie outside of the Star Wars context, I think I would enjoy it more. The point could be made that just the fact that we can feel passionate enough about our opinions to have this conversation a month after the movie is released is a signal that the movie is a success.
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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 am

In2ition wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
Well, Episodes 1-3 were all written after the fact to try and reinforce what happened in 4-6. I think it is a bit revisionist history to say that 4-6 all revolve around The Emperor. Snoke appeared more in 7 and 8 than Palpatine in 4 and 5, and I would never say 7/8 revolved around Snoke.

But to answer your other question, the US has been "fighting a war on terror" for the entire lives of nearly 100M americans. And it is the longest war in our country's history. That might be a big reason they did a story arc about never-ending, cyclical wars, that don't make much of a difference in the balance of one side or the other over generations.
How about the "War on Drugs"? What would have happened if the US never had a war on terror after 9/11? Purely a hypothetical question, as I have no idea.
War on drugs is another good comparison. And for your 9/11 question, really hard to answer that without going back to World War I and how all of the imperialistic countries decided to slice up the middle east.

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Indy
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Indy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:08 am

jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:
Indy wrote:
jonh wrote:Something I learned from this movie is that I am a Luke fan more than a Star Wars fan--every time I try to figure out why he went full-on hermit for as long as he did, the best rational that I can come up with is that Disney wanted to make more star wars movies, and it is easier to do that with someone closer to Rey's age than Luke's.

Although, the movie might really does highlight (perhaps accidentally) the futility of war more than almost any other movie I've ever seen. It really suggests that all of the fights in episodes 1-6, and all of the people that died, and all of the sacrifices made really didn't lead to anything; the galaxy is simply on some sort of continuous-war treadmill. The battle and faces change, but there is no consistent movement in one direction or another.

I am not a big fan of the movie.
Didn't the first trilogy already teach us that? It was an odd number of movies so they were playing a best of 3 and someone had to win 2, but really it is just a seesaw.
There is a difference between losing/winning battles, and fighting repetitious wars. In every war, there will be battles lost and fought--but once a war is one, then it is assumed some sort of new equilibrium will be created--some new dynamic will happen. Episodes 1-6 all revolve around overthrowing the same evil emperor (empire) (Vader is a villain, but is really the right hand man of the Emperor). There were a million different ways for episodes 7-9 to have conflict with someone--why choose to seemingly hit the character and universe reset button and substitute in another evil empire (order) for a ragtag rebel alliance to overcome?
Well, Episodes 1-3 were all written after the fact to try and reinforce what happened in 4-6. I think it is a bit revisionist history to say that 4-6 all revolve around The Emperor. Snoke appeared more in 7 and 8 than Palpatine in 4 and 5, and I would never say 7/8 revolved around Snoke.

But to answer your other question, the US has been "fighting a war on terror" for the entire lives of nearly 100M americans. And it is the longest war in our country's history. That might be a big reason they did a story arc about never-ending, cyclical wars, that don't make much of a difference in the balance of one side or the other over generations.
Im not saying that endless wars don't happen. However, the war(s) in episodes 1-6 are not framed to be an endless war. One of the by unfortunate by products (for me) in the framing of 7 and 8, is that there is a sense that war is both inevitable and potentially unending, both of which are themes that do not seem to me to be Star Wars themes.

But I recognize that we can have different opinions about this. If I saw this movie outside of the Star Wars context, I think I would enjoy it more. The point could be made that just the fact that we can feel passionate enough about our opinions to have this conversation a month after the movie is released is a signal that the movie is a success.
Good points.

And I would agree that SW fans seem to be bothered that this is a SW movie, not that it is a bad movie.

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