Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

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Indy
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Indy »

Do you feel the same way about TOs in football? Like should you just ignore interceptions because the best players also have the most interceptions?

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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:33 pm
Do you feel the same way about TOs in football? Like should you just ignore interceptions because the best players also have the most interceptions?
That’s not true, the best QB’s have less interceptions than the crappy ones. It’s also different because football is generally a points league. I’d have less problem with turnovers in basketball if it was a points league rather than a category league.

Having turnovers makes the low usage guys more valuable and I’d rather have my fantasy league represent the true value of players. Shawn Marion was like a top 5 fantasy player, but he was never a top 5 actual player.

It’s also a category you will for sure lose if you play someone who doesn’t pay attention to their roster and leaves injured players in. I don’t like rewarding people for not paying attention.

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Indy
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:33 pm
Do you feel the same way about TOs in football? Like should you just ignore interceptions because the best players also have the most interceptions?
That’s not true, the best QB’s have less interceptions than the crappy ones. It’s also different because football is generally a points league. I’d have less problem with turnovers in basketball if it was a points league rather than a category league.

Having turnovers makes the low usage guys more valuable and I’d rather have my fantasy league represent the true value of players. Shawn Marion was like a top 5 fantasy player, but he was never a top 5 actual player.

It’s also a category you will for sure lose if you play someone who doesn’t pay attention to their roster and leaves injured players in. I don’t like rewarding people for not paying attention.
To be clear, I am saying the highest scoring players (depending on how you tweak the scoring rules) are QBs. And QBs have the most TOs/interceptions. I wasn't saying the best QBs have the most TOs.

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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:58 pm
Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:33 pm
Do you feel the same way about TOs in football? Like should you just ignore interceptions because the best players also have the most interceptions?
That’s not true, the best QB’s have less interceptions than the crappy ones. It’s also different because football is generally a points league. I’d have less problem with turnovers in basketball if it was a points league rather than a category league.

Having turnovers makes the low usage guys more valuable and I’d rather have my fantasy league represent the true value of players. Shawn Marion was like a top 5 fantasy player, but he was never a top 5 actual player.

It’s also a category you will for sure lose if you play someone who doesn’t pay attention to their roster and leaves injured players in. I don’t like rewarding people for not paying attention.
To be clear, I am saying the highest scoring players (depending on how you tweak the scoring rules) are QBs. And QBs have the most TOs/interceptions. I wasn't saying the best QBs have the most TOs.
Ya I get that, but it’s because QB’s are literally the only ones who can get interceptions. And the points thing is really the bigger factor. In football it just gives you -1 or -2 points and combines it with all of the other points your QB produces through yards, TD, etc. You can’t benefit from not playing a QB because there is no TO category.

Like you could have a massive lead in points, rebounds, and assists going into the last day and it would make it detrimental to play a guy like James Harden because he might cost you the turnovers category.

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Shabazz
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Shabazz »

What about "Wins" as a 9th category, if Yahoo has that available? That would add an interesting wrinkle.

Otherwise, I get your logic around not including turnovers, but most of the other stats have at least some redundancy with one of the 8.
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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

Shabazz wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:15 pm
What about "Wins" as a 9th category, if Yahoo has that available? That would add an interesting wrinkle.

Otherwise, I get your logic around not including turnovers, but most of the other stats have at least some redundancy with one of the 8.
Ya not sure there is a great option. We could split to offensive and defensive rebounds, but that makes rebounds more important and I already think they’re overrated. Double doubles would be better, but it weighs towards rebounds as well as points/rebound double doubles are the most common. I do kinda like using TS%, but that kinda duplicates multiple of the fg/ft/3pm categories. But I’d consider using it to replace FG%.

What other options do we have? Wins would be interesting and I’m not opposed to that.

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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

I just checked, they don’t have wins, but they do have Assist/TO ratio…I’d be more in favor of that than straight TO.

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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Yahoo has some really terrible category options. I'd suggest moving to a better site but that would likely cause most of the league to quit.

Here are the Yahoo scoring options:

Games Played
Games Started
Minutes Played
Field Goals Attempted
Field Goals Made
Field Goal Percentage
Free Throws Attempted
Free Throws Made
Free Throw Percentage
3-Point Shots Attempted
3-Point Shots Made
3-Point Percentage
Points Scored
Offensive Rebounds
Defensive Rebounds
Total Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocked Shots

Turnovers
Assist/Turnover Ratio
Personal Fouls
Times Fouled Out
Technical Fouls
Ejections
Flagrant Fouls
Double-Doubles
Triple-Doubles
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:33 pm
I just checked, they don’t have wins, but they do have Assist/TO ratio…I’d be more in favor of that than straight TO.
I'm cool with A/T ratio, but then I'd like to replace Assists with something which means we're back to the same problem.
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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:50 pm
Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:33 pm
I just checked, they don’t have wins, but they do have Assist/TO ratio…I’d be more in favor of that than straight TO.
I'm cool with A/T ratio, but then I'd like to replace Assists with something which means we're back to the same problem.
It does duplicate assists a bit, but I’d be more ok with that than duplicating rebounds. I’m also cool just staying at 8 categories or moving to another site if it makes things easier. I’d rather stick with yahoo though if that means we lose players.

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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:53 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:50 pm
Split T wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:33 pm
I just checked, they don’t have wins, but they do have Assist/TO ratio…I’d be more in favor of that than straight TO.
I'm cool with A/T ratio, but then I'd like to replace Assists with something which means we're back to the same problem.
It does duplicate assists a bit, but I’d be more ok with that than duplicating rebounds. I’m also cool just staying at 8 categories or moving to another site if it makes things easier. I’d rather stick with yahoo though if that means we lose players.
I agree with you on that, A/T Ratio is better than splitting rebounds. A/T Ratio might be our best option, but I'll try to lay out the impact it'll have.

I've been using the Hashtag Basketball site to look at how adjusting categories would've changed the player rankings from the 2021-22 season. I suggest anyone who's genuinely interested in finding a solution for 9 categories check it out for themselves.

https://hashtagbasketball.com/fantasy-b ... l-rankings

Adding A/T Ratio while keeping Assists most significantly affects "true" point guards in a positive direction in the player rankings. Chris Paul was 18th in 8-category and adding A/T Ratio bumped him up to 11th. Tyreese Halliburton, 25th to 19th. Those are two examples of large improvements, but the trend is clear across the board with some even bigger jumps from lower ranked players like Terry Rozier (46 to 36). Obviously this decreases the rankings of all other players when one type of player is even slightly more valuable, but traditional big guys are impacted negatively the most.
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Shabazz
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Shabazz »

A/TO is a terrible fantasy stat. It’s a backup PG stat.
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I don't disagree, but look at the list of options and tell us if you think there's something better.

For the sake of debate, I think it's better to add value to ball handlers than bigs if forced to make a choice.
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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

Yep that’s how I feel, best option out of bad options. Honestly I’d rather just stick to 8-cat.

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pickle
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by pickle »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:15 am
The best players in the league generally have the highest usage and are therefore more likely to commit a turnover. I think it's lame to have a single category that incentivizes low usage players who don't generally impact the game much. Fantasy sports is about having the best players, no?

I also think turnovers are weighted too heavily in a standard setting because all turnovers are treated equally in fantasy basketball while we can all see which turnovers are "worse" than others while watching a game. For example, a dead ball turnover such as an offensive charge or pass out of bounds is often less harmful to a team than a missed three point shot or long rebound. Or consider the last possession of a game when a leading team intentionally commits a shot clock violation. The turnover attributed to the player holding the ball which is completely random and has nothing do with tactical decision making or skill.

I don't think 8 categories is that big of an issue in fantasy basketball because the season is so long that 4-4 weekly ties don't really change anything. That said, my preference is to have 9 categories and this league has always been a democracy, so we'll put it to a vote again once the members have been set.
I disagree in general with this line of reasoning. The best players in the league have the best usage, because as a whole, they still generate the most production with respect to each turnover, and that's why they are still given the ball despite their high turnover count, which is consistent with how that is modeled in fantasy -- you still draft a player who has high turnovers because of all the other benefits he brings you statistically. Fantasy sports is indeed about having the best players, but it's okay for the best players to have flaws. Take Harden for example, when he was averaging 35/8/9, he was the #1 player in fantasy despite averaging close to 5 turnovers a game; when his numbers came down to 25/7/9, he was no longer top 5, but still top 10 on a per game basis despite averaging about 4 turnovers. That seems quite fair.

As for turnovers being weighted too heavily because not all turnovers are equal in the real game, I think you can pretty much say the same about any statistical category. Not all rebounds are the same, the ones where you have no opposing players within 3 feet of you gathered 2 min into the first quarter count less than one that you battle for in traffic with 30 seconds to go and the score tied. Yet they count as the same in fantasy. Not all assists are the same... the ones generated by CP3 because he's a masterful mid range shooter who turns Biyombo into prime Dwight are more meaningful than one where Clarkson dribbles for 23 seconds and dumps it off to Conley who shoots a desperation three that goes in. Yet they count as the same in fantasy. I can probably make a case for every counting stat having different meaning, but guys who put up empty stats in the NBA are still valued by those numbers, so I really can't understand this line of reasoning. Btw, I'm pretty sure a shot clock violation counts as a team turnover and is not counted as an individual player turnover. We discussed this before when Kaminsky used to give the ball to Jalen Smith at the end of the shot clock in that exact scenario you described.

I don't have a strong issue against having 8 categories. I just dislike not having turnovers as a category.

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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

I just think fantasy, when using traditional 9-cat with turnovers, is skewed towards finishers. Especially big finishers. They get the fg% bump, rebound bump, and low turnover bump.

Let’s take for example Devin Booker vs Deandre Ayton. Let’s say Booker goes 10/20 with 27 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 0 blocks, 3 turnovers, 3 3s, and 4/5 from the ft line.

Ayton goes 10/13 with 23 points, 11 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 1 block, 0 turnovers, 1 3, and 2/3 from the ft line.

Those are both fairly average lines for those two.

Booker wins points, assists, 3’s and ft%, Ayton wins rebounds, blocks, fg%, and turnovers. Essentially they are equal, but I feel Ayton won two of the cheaper categories with fg% and turnovers. Not to mention rebounds which I feel is a very overrated stat for individuals. I guess I like that taking out turnovers makes Booker a better player in fantasy because he’s a better player in real life too.

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pickle
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by pickle »

I don't get why any category is cheaper than any other, and if they are, why don't we advocate taking out rebounds to make the category count odd again? If we really care enough about the weight of the categories, then we can try to play a points based league, though personally I'm not a huge fan of that because it takes away the trading aspect of this game.

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pickle
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by pickle »

Also, I think those are both very solid lines... Not sure that they can and should be compared directly.

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Split T
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Split T »

pickle wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:47 pm
I don't get why any category is cheaper than any other, and if they are, why don't we advocate taking out rebounds to make the category count odd again? If we really care enough about the weight of the categories, then we can try to play a points based league, though personally I'm not a huge fan of that because it takes away the trading aspect of this game.

It doesn’t matter that much if you just look at it as a separate game than the real game. We all know the rules and can adjust accordingly, but it just makes some lesser players more valuable than they are in the real game.

And it doesn’t even have to be Booker vs Ayton, take Booker vs Clint Capela. Capela is almost always going to win rebounds, blocks, fg%, and TO against Booker. Booker will win points, ft%, 3pt, and assists. Steals is a toss up. Take TO out and Booker will almost always be better than Capela, keep them in and now it depends on the other players on your team who’s more valuable. I’m just saying I’d rather have a league where Booker is clearly the more valuable player.

My biggest issue is it just makes non creative bigs more valuable than they should be. Id rather have the smaller creative guards be more valuable and taking out TO does that. But it’s not that big of a deal to me, I’ll happily do 9-cat if that’s what people want. We maybe just need to do a poll, 8-cat vs 9-cat(with TO) vs 9-cat(with a new 9th category).

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Phx-Suns.net Vet League is up and running

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I'll set up a poll as we now have all members in the league.

Before I do that, I just want to check with Shel and Gladiator about dropping out. Last chance, so to speak. :lol:

Next step will be setting a draft day and time after the poll results. Sometime between Oct. 14-17 is ideal, IMO. It seems like about half of the league is outside of the US, so try to be as flexible as possible.
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