Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by AmareIsGod » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:51 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:47 am
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboar ... 7b48e9ecf6

Total confirmed 198,193

Total deaths 7,954

2.5% mortality?

We thought the young were mostly unaffected. Not always.

Coronavirus doctor says lung scans for young patients were ‘nothing short of terrifying’
https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/coronavir ... errifying/

“They just walk in, but they are terribly affected by the virus,” Demeyer told the Belgian broadcaster VRT. He said CT scans indicated they were suffering from severe lung damage. “The images we took yesterday are nothing short of terrifying,” the doctor told the station.
This sucks. I'm really worried.
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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:49 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:47 am
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboar ... 7b48e9ecf6

Total confirmed 198,193

Total deaths 7,954

2.5% mortality?

We thought the young were mostly unaffected. Not always.

Coronavirus doctor says lung scans for young patients were ‘nothing short of terrifying’
https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/coronavir ... errifying/

“They just walk in, but they are terribly affected by the virus,” Demeyer told the Belgian broadcaster VRT. He said CT scans indicated they were suffering from severe lung damage. “The images we took yesterday are nothing short of terrifying,” the doctor told the station.
Actually it was never said that the young were mostly unaffected... I think this is largely what people decided to believe in to feel better about the situation. Statistics show that the fatality rate was higher for older age groups, but there was no analysis done on impact on otherwise healthy individuals by age group that I've seen or been alerted to. Despite being 4 months old, this disease is still quite new and not well understood.

Also, fatality rate isn't everything. As Cap pointed out once, even if a patient doesn't end up dying, that experience is still mighty unpleasant and it's still not well understood whether there are long term side effects.

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Nodack
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Nodack » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:14 pm

There seems to be two camps. One that takes this seriously and is afraid of what could happen, takes precautions and the other who thinks this is way overblown and takes no precautions. Some store owners have their employees wearing gloves and masks and avoid any contact. Some stores wear no protection, shake hands and act like everything is fine. I have found myself shaking hands when they stick out their hand against my better judgement as not to offend.

I read where a normal sanitized pool or jacuzzi will kill the virus.

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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:28 am

One of our friends here in China has had a long discussion with me where she is frustrated that scientists don't come out with guidelines on what happens to the virus in different scenarios. For instance how long the virus can survive on different surfaces, how much different means can kill the virus, and my answer to her, which unfortunately she has steadfastly refused to accept, is that none of this stuff is absolute. When someone claims that the virus survives 48 hours on metal, I would ask is that the same across all different types of metal? What does survive 48 hours mean exactly? 100% of the virus dies within 48 hours? Or something lower?

I guess my point is, there will not be very clear guidelines on what to do in every scenario, and you just have to work out an approach that suits your personal comfort level. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands per se... There has not been any warnings of this virus being transmitted by blood, the vast majority of the threat is transmission through your mouth, nose, and eyes. If you shake hands, then don't touch your face until you've washed your hands, and you'll be okay... If you are indoors in close proximity with a lot of people, it's probably best to wear a mask... I know this is not popular in the US right now, and there's plenty of information out there saying masks don't protect you against the virus, but that's simply not true, and wearing a mask indoors absolutely makes you safer, even if only marginally.

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Indy
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Indy » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:16 am

pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:28 am
One of our friends here in China has had a long discussion with me where she is frustrated that scientists don't come out with guidelines on what happens to the virus in different scenarios. For instance how long the virus can survive on different surfaces, how much different means can kill the virus, and my answer to her, which unfortunately she has steadfastly refused to accept, is that none of this stuff is absolute. When someone claims that the virus survives 48 hours on metal, I would ask is that the same across all different types of metal? What does survive 48 hours mean exactly? 100% of the virus dies within 48 hours? Or something lower?

I guess my point is, there will not be very clear guidelines on what to do in every scenario, and you just have to work out an approach that suits your personal comfort level. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands per se... There has not been any warnings of this virus being transmitted by blood, the vast majority of the threat is transmission through your mouth, nose, and eyes. If you shake hands, then don't touch your face until you've washed your hands, and you'll be okay... If you are indoors in close proximity with a lot of people, it's probably best to wear a mask... I know this is not popular in the US right now, and there's plenty of information out there saying masks don't protect you against the virus, but that's simply not true, and wearing a mask indoors absolutely makes you safer, even if only marginally.
Agreed, but the there are not enough masks in the world for everyone to wear one (and honestly you need to have your eyes covered too) and still have enough for care-givers. That is the huge shortage right now globally. We are going to have so many caregivers die in this pandemic as a result.

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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:54 pm

I actually don't think caregivers will be hit *that* hard because they are all well educated on how to protect themselves and will be the first to get a supply of medical equipment to help protect them.

I don't mean that everyone should stock up 3 months worth of masks... been saying since the first time I posted on this topic that everyone should have a dozen or two on hand for when you absolutely cannot avoid a trip to a crowded indoor space, but the primary way of fighting this is to avoid those spaces in general for the next month. Yes technically you need goggles too but honestly your chances of being infected through your eyes are far lower and goggles far easier to procure for that to be a problem.

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Indy
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Indy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:26 am

pickle wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:54 pm
I actually don't think caregivers will be hit *that* hard because they are all well educated on how to protect themselves and will be the first to get a supply of medical equipment to help protect them.

I don't mean that everyone should stock up 3 months worth of masks... been saying since the first time I posted on this topic that everyone should have a dozen or two on hand for when you absolutely cannot avoid a trip to a crowded indoor space, but the primary way of fighting this is to avoid those spaces in general for the next month. Yes technically you need goggles too but honestly your chances of being infected through your eyes are far lower and goggles far easier to procure for that to be a problem.
I think people touch their eyes a lot more than we think.

I have heard that some docs are performing surgeries without masks due to the lack, which means you have to pump a ton of antibiotics into them during and after surgery. Not a great situation.

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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:08 pm

I think that's fair, but the assumption is, hopefully, that people wash hands properly. Unless you work in a hospital that treats infected people the chances of your hands touching services contaminated with enough virus to be able to infect you at any moment is relatively low. My friend that I mentioned in the previous post leaves all deliveries and groceries for 48 hours before touching them. I think that is going a little too far on the scale of caution.

For doctors to operate without masks is very scary. That needs to be fixed.

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specialsauce
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by specialsauce » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:34 pm

Indy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:26 am
pickle wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:54 pm
I actually don't think caregivers will be hit *that* hard because they are all well educated on how to protect themselves and will be the first to get a supply of medical equipment to help protect them.

I don't mean that everyone should stock up 3 months worth of masks... been saying since the first time I posted on this topic that everyone should have a dozen or two on hand for when you absolutely cannot avoid a trip to a crowded indoor space, but the primary way of fighting this is to avoid those spaces in general for the next month. Yes technically you need goggles too but honestly your chances of being infected through your eyes are far lower and goggles far easier to procure for that to be a problem.
I think people touch their eyes a lot more than we think.

I have heard that some docs are performing surgeries without masks due to the lack, which means you have to pump a ton of antibiotics into them during and after surgery. Not a great situation.
I have been calling around town to all local paint stores and hardware stores begging for N95 masks. It’s pathetic. I’m so fucking disappointed in society and these idiots that think they need it and I’m over here exposing myself constantly in the ER and we are rationing one mask per shift and in all likelihood will be out in a few weeks. Normally we are supposed to toss these masks after each patient.

The day I run out of masks is the day I quit and walk out of the hospital. I’m not risking my life or my family’s life on a suicide mission.

So no. We’re not “fine.”

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Nodack
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Nodack » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:01 pm

What about surgical masks? Are they close? 50 for $22.


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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:10 am

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:34 pm

I have been calling around town to all local paint stores and hardware stores begging for N95 masks. It’s pathetic. I’m so fucking disappointed in society and these idiots that think they need it and I’m over here exposing myself constantly in the ER and we are rationing one mask per shift and in all likelihood will be out in a few weeks. Normally we are supposed to toss these masks after each patient.

The day I run out of masks is the day I quit and walk out of the hospital. I’m not risking my life or my family’s life on a suicide mission.

So no. We’re not “fine.”
That is terrible news. I had no idea the hospitals were under such pressure. Has it really come to the point where hospitals need to source their own masks? Things have gotten much better in China, and masks have become more readily available... When COVID-19 first broke there were restrictions on masks being sent from overseas into China. I wonder if there is such restrictions in the other direction now.

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specialsauce
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by specialsauce » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:20 am

Nodack wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:01 pm
What about surgical masks? Are they close? 50 for $22.

Thanks Dack. That’s what the CDC and therefore our local admin is telling us to wear. The virus is smaller and one would presume can get through those masks, therefore in close encounters you would think you need an N95 mask that filters out smaller particles. The whole world is pictured wearing these but the CDC (100% I believe because of the shortage here and therefore spin control) says totally unnecessary unless you’re doing a high risk procedure. They’re even telling us to make a homemade mask or use a bandana SMH.

Banner hospital network reportedly had admin walking the halls and belittling staff that were wearing any masks outside of patient rooms or in rooms of patients with non respiratory complaints saying it was totally unnecessary. Told them to take it off or risk being sent home/terminated. Nevermind most healthcare exposures have been on unexpected cases. I would quit on the spot and foreclose on my house before I listened. Thankfully my admin isn’t as aggressive and they’ve at least allowed us to get 1 N95 to wear all shift for now if desired.

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Nodack
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Nodack » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:47 am

They probably aren’t as good as the N95 ones but, they are certainly better than none. Are the Home Depot ones for working around dust any better? For the most part aren’t we talking about spit? I would think even the cheaper masks contain most of the spray. I can’t see how even small spit particles can get through several layers of cloth unless ot was saturated.

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specialsauce
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by specialsauce » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:50 pm

Nodack wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:47 am
They probably aren’t as good as the N95 ones but, they are certainly better than none. Are the Home Depot ones for working around dust any better? For the most part aren’t we talking about spit? I would think even the cheaper masks contain most of the spray. I can’t see how even small spit particles can get through several layers of cloth unless ot was saturated.
It’s better than nothing.

The industrial N95s are good too. I went around town getting my hands on some that I could find but assholes have wiped stores clean for the most part.

It’s a lot more complex than saying “spit.” Yes a surgical mask does offer good protection from a massive wad that carries a huge viral load. However! You see large droplets, but the tiny aerosolized particles are smaller than what you can see. They stay in the air for 3 hours after you cough, sneeze, use a nebulizer treatment, Cpap machine. You can’t see them. And they will go through the surgical mask, literally. It’s like you have guard rails but a small animal can squeeze through.

N95 means that it filters 95% of particles larger than 0.3 microns.

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Indy
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Indy » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:09 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:50 pm
Nodack wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:47 am
They probably aren’t as good as the N95 ones but, they are certainly better than none. Are the Home Depot ones for working around dust any better? For the most part aren’t we talking about spit? I would think even the cheaper masks contain most of the spray. I can’t see how even small spit particles can get through several layers of cloth unless ot was saturated.
It’s better than nothing.

The industrial N95s are good too. I went around town getting my hands on some that I could find but assholes have wiped stores clean for the most part.

It’s a lot more complex than saying “spit.” Yes a surgical mask does offer good protection from a massive wad that carries a huge viral load. However! You see large droplets, but the tiny aerosolized particles are smaller than what you can see. They stay in the air for 3 hours after you cough, sneeze, use a nebulizer treatment, Cpap machine. You can’t see them. And they will go through the surgical mask, literally. It’s like you have guard rails but a small animal can squeeze through.

N95 means that it filters 95% of particles larger than 0.3 microns.
I thought the study that was going around yesterday said the aerosol tests were not indicative of real-life scenarios and the water droplets it can live in would fall out of the air in seconds, not hours. Still you would likely be around it in those seconds, though.

How many people are you (at your hospital) actually testing each day? AZ still looks like a small blip on the screen for 7 million residents. I assume that is less about lower infected people, and more about lack of testing.

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Split T
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Split T » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:26 pm

A ventilator, bipap, etc. can aerosolize that droplets and make it airborne. That’s really where the N95 masks are needed. We obviously don’t know everything about this virus yet, but at my hospital, we’re being told that the regular surgical masks with gown, gloves and goggles should be sufficient. Though I’m not sure how confident I’d feel if someone with Covid-19 coughed right in my face.

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specialsauce
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by specialsauce » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:58 pm

Indy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:09 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:50 pm
Nodack wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:47 am
They probably aren’t as good as the N95 ones but, they are certainly better than none. Are the Home Depot ones for working around dust any better? For the most part aren’t we talking about spit? I would think even the cheaper masks contain most of the spray. I can’t see how even small spit particles can get through several layers of cloth unless ot was saturated.
It’s better than nothing.

The industrial N95s are good too. I went around town getting my hands on some that I could find but assholes have wiped stores clean for the most part.

It’s a lot more complex than saying “spit.” Yes a surgical mask does offer good protection from a massive wad that carries a huge viral load. However! You see large droplets, but the tiny aerosolized particles are smaller than what you can see. They stay in the air for 3 hours after you cough, sneeze, use a nebulizer treatment, Cpap machine. You can’t see them. And they will go through the surgical mask, literally. It’s like you have guard rails but a small animal can squeeze through.

N95 means that it filters 95% of particles larger than 0.3 microns.
I thought the study that was going around yesterday said the aerosol tests were not indicative of real-life scenarios and the water droplets it can live in would fall out of the air in seconds, not hours. Still you would likely be around it in those seconds, though.

How many people are you (at your hospital) actually testing each day? AZ still looks like a small blip on the screen for 7 million residents. I assume that is less about lower infected people, and more about lack of testing.
If you look at the CDCs recs for the SARS outbreak, it was airborne precautions. SARS was a corona virus of the same makeup. These guidelines are purely supply related. I’m not risking my life or my family’s life on a supply driven guideline.

Testing is not happening. Look at #tests per state, we are incredibly low. It is likely network dependent but at my network we are told essentially to not test anyone we are sending home unless they’re really high risk. We are just telling well appearing people to assume they have it, and quarantine accordingly.

NY is testing much more broadly. It’s definitely here. But we’re not testing and it gives the public a false sense of hope.

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specialsauce
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by specialsauce » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:59 pm

Split T wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:26 pm
A ventilator, bipap, etc. can aerosolize that droplets and make it airborne. That’s really where the N95 masks are needed. We obviously don’t know everything about this virus yet, but at my hospital, we’re being told that the regular surgical masks with gown, gloves and goggles should be sufficient. Though I’m not sure how confident I’d feel if someone with Covid-19 coughed right in my face.
Exactly. Patients cough in my face daily. I had someone cough directly in my face yesterday. I was wearing an N95, surgical mask over it and a welders faceshield on top. If it’s going to take me down it’s going to have to work damn hard. When they tell me I can’t do that, I’ll turn my badge in.

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pickle
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:35 am

I am not a medical professional nor a mask professional, so hopefully I'm not too out of my element here.

When COVID-19 first broke out, as one can imagine, there was a lot of false information, and I read up a fair bit on how masks work. My understanding is as follows:

1. N95, as Sauce explained, filters at least 95% of particulate matter up to a certain size, and its very effective protecting against aerosols.
2. Industrial dust filters are also N95... I'm not sure how they are different from medical N95, but they are N95 nonetheless and are effective.
3. I've read that medical masks / surgical masks are also N95, the difference between those and dust filters is the robustness of material. Industrial N95 filters are good for up to 8 hours, but the medical ones can only last 4 hours. This is generally consistent with my personal experience, as I wear masks to work everyday, and the medical ones start breaking down towards the end of the day. However, I don't know for 100% certain whether these medical masks are also rated at 95% filter rate, just relaying what I've read.
4. The way these masks filter the particulate matter is not through a physical filtration, but rather, they come in at least 3 layers -- the outer most layer is designed to block moisture, the middle layer is charged with static electricity to bind the particulate matter, and the inner layer absorbs moisture to assure wearer comfort.

In terms of aerosols dropping after a few minutes, this is generally why I've been saying it's okay to not wear masks outdoors when there are not too many people around, even though aerosols are proven to be virus carriers, risks of exposure are fairly low in most daily environments. However, in an actual hospital where COVID patients may be getting treatment, people are at much higher risk of exposure and should be protected as much as possible.

I don't know if I'm helping much with this list of random information. Sauce, if you are getting those surgical masks from the hospital, maybe wear two of them, and throw out the outer one every four hours and put on a new one on the inside. Make sure you wear it properly and get a good seal around your face though.

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Indy
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Re: Coronovirus: When should we be concerned?

Post by Indy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:21 am

I have a small woodshop and mess around in there from time to time. So I have a re-usable dust mask that supposedly protects at greater than 99.97% of particles of 0.3 microns. I don't think they rate dust masks the same as medical because they are tested by different standards and government agencies (here in the US at least).

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