Tesla

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

pickle wrote: Not trying to justify the outsourcing, just saying that with the amount of bureaucracy in these larger companies that it's often more efficient, under certain market conditions, to outsource. I think the liability discussions are a result of that arrangement, rather than a driving force behind it, but I could be wrong.
[apologies for the rant but I live this every day]
The two key arguments I hear most often for outsourcing from a large corporation are efficiency and specialization. I understand the point behind both of them.

For corporations, they are beholden to their investors (which usually includes a very heavily leveraged c-suite, so what makes the investors money makes the c-suite a ton of money). So when they say something is more efficient, they just mean it costs less. So my problem with this argument is, it is a cop-out.

The huge corporation has more resources than their OEMs and sub-contractors, and any bureaucracy is their own doing. If they wanted to do the job, they could find a way to do it for cheaper in house.

But the Supplier teams (called different things in different businesses) are not an impartial arbiter of what is good/bad. They need a bigger supply base and more OEMs and more widgets coming from outside the company, because that builds their empire within the big company. So, like they always says with statistics, you can tell any story you want. So they argue that they found a wonderful supplier that can do this for cheaper than we can, even when the component/sub-assembly/whatever is a key tenet of what it means to do your job.

On the specialization argument, the general sense is "we are in the XYZ business, not the ABC business" and you can fill in any big product with hundreds/thousands of parts in for XYZ, and some special part for ABC. The semiconductor shortage is a great example of this. GM would say they are in the car business, not the semiconductor business. Of course they have the capital to build a semiconductor plant and get good at it, but that is a huge undertaking and diverts resources away from where they want to spend (and of course from their C-suite's and investor's pockets, at least in the short term, and CEOs aren't usually around for more than 10 years so they don't think long-term anyway). So they find a key strategic partner to do that for them. I side with this argument a lot more than "it is cheaper to have someone else make our seats."

All of that said, I realize a lot of innovation happens at smaller suppliers. Most of that innovation is just "how can we make this thing cheaper" and not the cool innovation we all think of that created side air bags or anti-lock brakes. But some really great things comes from the smaller company having to do more with less. The issue I have is that always comes at the expense of the small company, as the big company keeps forcing that upon them, while they rake in more profits.

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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Yeah that is probably more depth than I'd get into on a keyboard. If we ever sit down over drinks one day we can talk about this more. I'm pretty sure we are on the same side of the issue though... just a general level of frustration with big corporations. The difference is I seem to have been beaten down already by the bullshit, whereas you still have a fighting spirit.

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

pickle wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:26 am
Yeah that is probably more depth than I'd get into on a keyboard. If we ever sit down over drinks one day we can talk about this more. I'm pretty sure we are on the same side of the issue though... just a general level of frustration with big corporations. The difference is I seem to have been beaten down already by the bullshit, whereas you still have a fighting spirit.
I am still fighting this every day. Not so sure about my spirit. But yeah, we need to sit down over drinks.

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

I wonder how much unions come into play. Big corporations are not real big fans of unions. Does it make any difference to a corporation union wise whether the parts are made by their own union employees or whether they were farmed out from some supplier that has to worry about that, not GM. Then again, those places can strike too but, if it’s just one supplier you just have a small hole to plug. Maybe the same parts come from multiple suppliers just in case you have a problem with one.

GM left the proving grounds n Mesa and sent it to Mexico right after the Union came in and tried to sign everybody up.

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:56 pm
I wonder how much unions come into play. Big corporations are not real big fans of unions. Does it make any difference to a corporation union wise whether the parts are made by their own union employees or whether they were farmed out from some supplier that has to worry about that, not GM. Then again, those places can strike too but, if it’s just one supplier you just have a small hole to plug. Maybe the same parts come from multiple suppliers just in case you have a problem with one.

GM left the proving grounds n Mesa and sent it to Mexico right after the Union came in and tried to sign everybody up.
you would think that dual (or even tri) supply chains make a ton of sense and should be used for all critical/important parts. it sure would. doesn't really happen, unless something blew up in their face in the past that forced them to do it.

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

Oh, if GM owned those proving grounds, they probably could make a lot more money selling the land and then moving to tijuana or nogales.

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

😵‍💫
Last edited by Nodack on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

Lol, they did but it was back a few years now.

General Motors Proving Ground Cupuan del Rio is situated between Lázaro Cárdenas and Uruapan, Michoacán, Mexico. The facility opened in 2006 and features a circle track, several off-road courses, and is primarily used for testing HVAC systems.

When I worked there in Mesa it was primarily durability testing in the heat. 30k miles, three shifts a day 24/7. No doubt a five mile circle track. That’s what the old one was.

Old in Mesa

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New in Mexico
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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Unions are a big part of the auto industry. I'm sure you've all read about how GM and Chrysler had to be rescued because their unions wouldn't budge on the pension and medical funds that were negotiated earlier that were bankrupting the two companies almost 2 decades ago. Ford is the only one that managed to stay afloat through the ordeal. Same thing with European car companies, sometimes even worse because unions have board seats with veto rights...

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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Also, I hope I didn't come off as being antagonistic towards unions. There's a reason why they exist, but like with all other large entities, they eventually take on a life of their own which may end up serving a purpose different from their original design. In no way am I blaming these companies' misfortunes on unions alone... was trying to stay objective, even if I don't come off as being that.

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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Indy, this is for you.

Image

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

pickle wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:24 am
Indy, this is for you.

Image
lol

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

I finally got my car back from the dealer.

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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Good for you dack. That’s just a nightmarish experience altogether.

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Superbone
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Re: Tesla

Post by Superbone »

Nodack wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:44 am
I finally got my car back from the dealer.
Was it actually fixed?
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

I hope so. I drove it home and then to a gig tonight and it seemed fine. I am not an expert at knowing if they did or didn’t replace the battery. It drives now and it didn’t before. The paperwork says they replaced the battery energy control module, did a smoke test to verify battery system seal, filled and purged battery cooling system and then programmed the new module. As much of a pain in the ass as it was, I did get a new main battery for free after five years.

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

Is it a new battery, or just the battery control module?

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Nodack
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Re: Tesla

Post by Nodack »

I guess just a battery control module. I don’t know the difference. Well at least it’s running again.

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Indy
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Re: Tesla

Post by Indy »

Yeah, glad you got a working car back.

I have been thinking about selling my truck, but not sure we can get around with a family of 4 on just one car. The KBB value on my truck is 85% of what I paid for it new, 36k miles and 5 years ago. That is crazy. If I knew that chip supply and car supply would be back in the next 12 months I would probably pull the trigger, but I just think it is going to last longer.

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pickle
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Re: Tesla

Post by pickle »

Battery control module is basically a mini-computer that controls how the battery runs... that probably isn't the actual battery pack that got replaced.

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